To think it is unfair that Scots and Welsh students don't have to pay for university education whereas English students do, even if they attend a Scots or Welsh university?

[Dolcelatte]

It just doesn't seem fair at all to me. Young English students are saddled with a mountain of debt at a young age whereas, as I understand the position, the Scots and Welsh don't have to pay. No doubt some wise MNer will correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't have anything against the Scots or Welsh students or begrudge them their good fortune; they are very lucky. And I know that life isn't fair, but even so....
(this is where I would sign off with a suitable emoticon but IT skills sadly lacking by this mother of 2 DC at English universities).

[ApocalypseNowt]

Haven't read the other Scottish independence threads but this one is v interesting.

Lots of stuff about it over on twitter and from my news feed the #yesvote seems to have a fair bit of momentum (hardly representative i know).

I wonder what the voter turnout will be for it?

[TalkinPeace]

iamsoannoyed
Its less an issue about the Scotland / England issue
than
if Scotland leave the Union, they leave the EU
and with that lose access to ENORMOUS amounts of funds and jobs and grants and trade
which will be catastrophic for the economy.

King Alec tries to tell people it will be OK with the EU.
It won't.
Spain, France and Italy all have INCREDIBLY strong vested interests to allow devolved countries being admitted to membership.
Scotland will be in limbo at the least for years on

• EU agriculture grants
  
• EU trade allowances (duty free etc)
  
• EU University funding
  
• EU industrial / regional grants
  

and that is before anything the twits at Westminster do.

Student funding will be a teeny tiny issue compared with the job losses

[Celticlass2]

If it is a no, can Scotland have another referendum in say 10 years time, or is it the end of the road as far as independence is concerned?

[Toadinthehole]

Legally, that's up to the UK government. Whether the Scottish government has the legal power to hold a referendum is questionable. They were specifically granted the power to hold this one by the UK parliament.

As a matter of politics though, if the SNP were re-elected on a manifesto commitment to hold another referendum, I couldn't see the UK government opposing it, unless it was clearly going to be a complete waste of everyone's time (i.e., clear likely No vote).

[StatisticallyChallenged]

I couldn't see the UK government opposing it

I could if we got to a slightly silly neverendum situation - for example if it was a No, SNP then campaigned on a referendum pledge in 2016 and won and immediately pushed for another referendum I don't think they would agree.

[Toadinthehole]

Yes, I agree, unless there had been some major political upheaval of some sort. But imagine if in the decade following a no vote, the SNP continued to gain support, polls started to show a pro Yes majority, and the Tories remained both in government and unpopular in Scotland, then I think the argument would succeed. My fear is that this is what will happen.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

Talkinpeace, while it's all very well to talk about the subsidies we wouldn't recieve, you ignore the fact that we are net contributors. So, in the (very unlikely) case we are indeed chucked out of the EU, we would not be paying into the subsides of others and all of that money coild be used to support our own farmers.

Or y'know, land reform.

[TalkinPeace]

Scotland is not a net contributor to the EU
and what about the University jobs that would vanish ....

[empathetic]

Iamsoannoyed I wasn't thinking so much about being better off economically. I was thinking of:

We could have double summer time (yay!)
We could vote out student fees (yay!)
We could get a govt we voted for, and not have it swung to a different party by the Scottish MPs (a lot of parliaments, excepting Blair's landslide, would have had a different majority party without Scotland)

I suppose I just fancy self determination for the English, really.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

Empathetic that's not true re Scotland changing the results, it's only been a couple of times where it has prevented a majority I believe.

[Toadinthehole]

We already have self-determination.

[empathetic]

A couple of times is maybe 6 or 8 years of government! That is def not self determination.

[empathetic]

Just found this in New Statesman January 2012:

"What is true is that so long as British politics remains "hung", Labour cannot afford for Scotland to go it alone. Were it not for Miliband's Scottish MPs, the Tories would have won a majority of 19 at the last election. The loss of Scotland, coupled with the coalition's boundary changes (which will deprive Labour of 28 seats, the Tories of 7 and the Lib Dems of 11), would stack the odds against a Labour majority."

So we would currently have a Tory govt and not coalition right now if we were really able to self determine (and we could easily have been having a Labour/LibDem coalition right now if Clegg had got into bed with Labour, despite the country having voted by a majority for the Tories). Whatever your personal voting preferences (mine are not Tory), it is def true that we don't currently have the govt we voted for. I would view that situation changing as a real positive if Scotland goes independent.

[Cherriesandapples]

You may be jealous of fees but you probably have a hospital within a reasonable distance! Debt over life and death....

[empathetic]

Cherries true! But it's not really about jealousy, it's about self determination. I am all for the Scottish deciding how they want to spend their money (eg education more than health, if that is what they choose) and for England to do the same.

OTOH, really, I suspect we are "better together", as they say.

[Toadinthehole]

I don't agree. English seats dominate the Westminster parliament. This parliament (or at least the most important chamber in it) is elected at regular intervals. If that is not self-determination then name me one country that has it.

The English already have the power to govern their own affairs. They cannot be outvoted in the parliament that legislates for their country. Which brings one back to the OP of this thread: the English could have had the same deal as the Scots by electing a party that had the same manifesto commitment: the Lib Dems.

[empathetic]

Toad yes, english seats dominate Westminster but it is Scottish seats that swing the balance of power between parties, and therefore determine who forms the actual government.

[StatisticallyChallenged]

Empathetic, scottish votes have not changed the result in the majority of elections. I've seen the full analysis somewhere, but in recent times it is only the current election where the outcome was changed. There have only been, I think, 4 since ww2 where the Scottish result changed the outcome. The only one in recent times was the current government.

Of course, you appear to think that Scottish people are some sort of "other" who have less of a right to a say in the government than English people. Or you could, alternatively, pick 59 other constituencies which tend to never elect the Tories (there's plenty of them, try looking in ex mining towns) and say that they prevent you having self determination...

[Marmiteandjamislush]

This is why, as an English person living in England I am aching for a yes vote. The Scottish should have no say in Westminster or English politics, that is why we pay and they don't.

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I also hate the propaganda that the English want to keep Scotland 'yoked', that is just not the case. I also hate that we are not allowed to be proud of being English, but the Scottish are allowed to be Scottish, the Welsh, Welsh and the Irish Irish, but us, no we must be British otherwise we are colonialist or racist. I hate it.

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

Eh? What don't we pay?

[OldLadyKnowsSomething]

Oh, you mean tuition fees, of course! Sorry, I thought you meant you pay for Westminster, and we don't.

[Bambambini]

Because the Westminster government actually means the english government in many english folks minds. I've heard folk moan in the past at having to have a scottish PM, chancellor etc because of course they should be English.

[Dolcelatte]

Toad, I am bemused that you think that the Lib Dems would have stuck to their manifesto. It took about 5 minutes for Nick Clegg to sell students down the river once it was politically expedient for him to do so, by voting in fees for students, despite previously saying that he would not do so. At that stage, I lost all respect for him and the party which he supposedly represents.

Clegg should have maintained his stance on something as important as this and, if he truly believed in the principle of free education, he should have been prepared to resign over it. But self interest came first, as it always seems to with politicians of all shades and nationalities.