to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

The Scottish king himself decided to merge with England.

FWIW I don't think the history is relevant to what's best for Scotland and the rUK for the future. And the fact that Scotland is so split on the question on its identity and desire for self-determination is a very good case for not having self-determination. Unless a large majority of the electorate vote for it you can't claim that there is a sufficiently strong sense of national identity to justify it.

I think iScotland will be fairer because our votes won't be proportionate to our size in a Government which is influenced mainly by voters in England

I don't take this as anti-English, but it does tend to assume too much about England. It is not a uniformly right-wing monolith. It simply isn't the case that Scotland goes one way and England goes another.

I suspect this is all about the Tories, ie, everyone in Scotland hates them whereas everyone in Scotland loves them. Which, as one glance at the electoral map will show, is simply a nonsense. The Tories pick up lots of seats in southern England by virtue of FPTP which, for reasons I simply cannot get my head around, the UK as a whole voted to retain. Their polling, even in southern England, wasn't that flash in 2010.

Is this one of the bloggers on the Mumsnet blog thingy?

dorkymum.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-one-with-the-referendum/

I think it's fairer to say that No means not assuming that independence needs to be the only option for a "country" (how do you define that, by the way, in a way that is not nationalist?).

Earlier in this thread you said that it was all about "blood and soil" nationalism which is both offensive and wrong.

Civic nationalism is an important factor.

I think it's fairer to say that No means not assuming that independence needs to be the only option for a "country" (how do you define that, by the way, in a way that is not nationalist?).

The Scottish Parliament had wanted to include DevoMax as an option, but it was declined by Westminster. There would have been another choice had it not been vetoed, but Cameron was clear he wanted a straight Yes or No.

Supporting the independence cause in a country which isn't your own can't be Nationalism?

To be pedantic, the referendum is being held three years and 5 months after the SNP won the Scottish Parliamentary election, not 4 years - and ties in with what they said during their election campaign: that they would hold an election in the 2nd half of the Parliament.

I wish the politicians and commentators would discuss the principle of an independent Scotland. Tearing Scotland away from rUK to spite the current government when so many of the Scottish electorate are against independence as a matter of principle......

Or because of the hope that we will be better off...

We can have more referenda but we can't rejoin.

Well, I think there is such a thing as civic nationalism. The United States is a good example of it: its nationalism (in theory at least) is based on a specifically chosen and coherent set of abstract values, rather than to the culture and traditions it has more or less accidentally ended up with. Not like Scotland at all.

Re the 'Democracy Argument' - I don't believe Yes has made a compelling argument that I, personally, will have a stronger voice in decision that affect me, and the communities of which I am part of. I'm part of many different communities (geographically, professionally, demographically even!) none of which are 5million-people-sized. To affect actual democracy which require a change to the structures and processes, not simply shifting London-Edinburgh, in my view.

I am genuinely interested in promoting greater democracy which is why I follow ERS Scotland who produced their Democracy Max report, have tentatively welcomed the Commission on Local Democracy Report and will (hopefully) participate in the upcoming, inaugural Rural Parliament in Oban.

If democracy were readily answered by independence itself, I have no doubt that ERSS, Democracy Society, etc would be off the fence and campaigning for it - they are not. They are presenting the opportunities - regardless of referendum outcome - and challenging politicians across the country to embrace them. The fact is that independence in itself does not improve democracy. Whilst you and I may also prefer the voting system in Scottish Parl compared to Westminster, the majority of the electorate (even in Scotland!) voted against changing first past the post.

If we were currently independent - in Europe and in a currency union with rUk as proposed - there is no doubt in my mind that there would be people campaigning against the particular democratic deficits that creates (one of the greatest issues in Eurozone is the democratic deficit)

www.electoral-reform.org.uk/democracy-max/
www.localdemocracy.info/

Ok, so your definition /issues around fairness centre on the fundamental difference that you think of Scotland as different and basically governed by the UK, rather than a part of it which votes like anyone else. From what I have seen there are a lot of yes voters who believe that fairer means Scottish society will somehow be fundamentally different to how it is now.

Thank you prettybird I'll be more accurate in future.

I still worry that the vote will be affected by the current economic climate; the after effects of the recession.

I dislike the Tories Toad, but same with Labour. I think David Cameron is out to benefit himself and his wealthy friends, with little to no thought for people on an average or below living wage.

This is a problem for people in England, Wales and N. Ireland too, of course. I think it's a majority view throughout the UK that Workfare and the Bedroom Tax are awful. With less people within the UK, it would also give VM less people to focus on, if you like, and also concentrate on meeting the needs of a smaller number of citizens.

A few friends in SE England have said they wish they could have independence (lightheartedly of course) thanks to the way WM is going. I know it isn't a case of being polar opposites.

VM? I meant WM.

It could be argued that the SNP were being fair on the ConDem Governmen, giving them more time to pull the UK out of the recession

....but somehow I don't think that was a consideration

WM, and for that matter Whitehall, are up their own arses. Over the last few decades they have assumed so many powers that they can't serve anyone properly. It isn't just that local government has been castrated, all manner of central government functions that used to be peformed throughout the country have been centralised in the name of efficiency and consistency. Given that so many of these matters are devolved already (and before then, handled separately by the Scottish Office), no, I have no expectation that Scottish independence will change anything.

Oh and had a quick look at the Wings site. One of the first things I saw was an article called "What an arsehole looks like"

I see No Thanks leaflets are "slithering" through letter boxes.

Charming

that was for prettybird not Toad

It's in the nature of government to push for more powers.

Best have plenty of checks on its powers eg a second chamber.

The whole 'only country to vote against independence' really grinds my gears, tbh. There are no historical precedents for the union as it was created and - if Yes - its dissolution. Other countries which became independent of the UK were colonies, etc, not active partners in the union.

Quebec did not vote for independence from Canada [shrug] and apparently a large number of Jamaicans believe they should have stayed a colony!

wingsoverscotland.com/?s=What+an+arsehole+looks+like Oh, Phaedra, don't fib; that item was published back in May, it certainly wasn't "one of the first things" you saw!

Other countries which became independent of the UK were colonies, etc, not active partners in the union.
In the interest of historical accuracy Ireland was allegedly a fully fledged member of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, as it was.

I'm not fibbing. How dare you. I think I opened a Google cached link on a search but it was there.

Oldlady I find your calling me a liar on an open forum very offensive.