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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

999 replies

FannyFifer · 25/08/2014 22:28

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

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Toadinthehole · 28/08/2014 12:04

Just to add (and I expect my posts will get modded), that I do use the term advisedly. "Blood and soil" predated the unpleasant events of the mid 20th century. I use it because I fear what nationalism can lead to.

ChelsyHandy · 28/08/2014 12:06

I also absolutely hate nationalism as well. I really don't care what nationality a person is. No interest in the concept whatsoever. O think traditions are worth preserving but can distinguish between them and a fake pedalling of tartan and tat in the pursuit of ideology and politics.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/08/2014 12:06

FFS toad go and do some reading. Multiculturalism is perfectly compatible with various forms of nationalism (just not the Nazi version that you accused Scots of believing)

FannyFifer · 28/08/2014 12:07

I have more to fear from British nationalism.
They seem to be doing a good job killing off the poor & disabled anyhow, how many folk have died now after being assessed as fit to work, or had benefits stopped?

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OOAOML · 28/08/2014 12:08

I went to see Jim Murphy. I walked there, as did most other people. Nice to see you peddling the bus line that that nutter on Facebook do though.

ChelsyHandy · 28/08/2014 12:09

I think history shows us we have quite a lot to fear from socialism. Do you really think that people living begin the former iron curtain had great lives?

FannyFifer · 28/08/2014 12:11

He was in my town, they all got off the bus, a few labour councillors turned up as well to listen, a few random shoppers wandered past but no one actually not involved or earning a living from politics turned up.

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WildThong · 28/08/2014 12:11

"Also the majority of people turning up to shout at Murphy are Labour Party voters"
How can you possibly know that as a fact? Or was that on Facebook too?

sconequeen · 28/08/2014 12:15

I honestly, hand on heart, cannot see what difference Scotland being independent will make to most of the people who live here. For many years now, Scotland could have been encouraging businesses/entrepreneurs to set up here, could have been supporting development etc. There was nothing stopping this from happening. Why, in the case of a Yes vote in September, would all this change suddenly be possible. It's not impossible now. It just feels as if the Scottish govt would rather blame their lack of progress on Westminster than on their own lack of initiative.

It would be different precisely because, being independent, we could take complete responsibility for shaping the kind of country we want. There has been something stopping this from happening up to now - the fact that tax-raising powers and overall spending decisions are made outwith Scotland, and that only some powers are currently devolved.

An independent Scotland would not be subject to policies and spending shaped outwith Scotland, and we could choose ourselves how to allocate our resources. I personally hope, for example, that this would mean we would choose to invest more in stopping elderly folk from dying of cold because they can't afford to put their heating on in an oil-producing country, and reverse the current situation where 30,000 more Scottish children are now living below the poverty line. We could also identify and prioritise effective business support, education, training and welfare strategies which are not totally within our power at the moment.

I'm not going to apologise for wanting to see a fairer society or for believing that we will not achieve this for as long as we are ruled from Westminster. And I don't think I'm living in cloud-cuckoo land, because I believe not only that the figures stack up now but also because I think that independence could create the conditions we need for people and businesses here to flourish. Of course, it depend on how Scots choose to vote after independence but I think the impetus is there for positive change. The alternative of the same old inequalities, lack of vision and skewed priorities that Westminster offers does not say "Better Together" to me.

And, ref implications further above that I must be uneducated, non-working, ideology driven and socialist, I actually have post-graduate qualifications, have worked at senior level in the public sector before leaving to set up in my own successful consultancy business specialising in economic and rural/community development which I still work in (and employ staff), have never voted socialist in my life, and am not married to the SNP agenda either. I'm saying this not because I think any of it makes me better than people from other backgrounds but because I want to debunk some of the assertions made above. The Yes campaign is very broadly based, and it does No voters no credit to dismiss other people's views because these people do not match certain narrow parameters of educational or social acceptability. You don't need a degree or a full-time job to be able to think things out and hold a valid opinion. Some people may not be as articulate and might even use sweary words to express themselves, but that doesn't make their views less valid.

I respect the decision to vote No even if some No voters do not seem to respect the decision to vote Yes. If there is a Yes vote in September, No voters will be as able as Yes voters to help shape the future. In the event of a No vote, I think we will see far more active engagement in the democratic process by the many Yes voters who now have the confidence and desire to be involved in making things change in Scotland even within the confines of Westminster rule.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/08/2014 12:19

I think history shows us we have quite a lot to fear from socialism. Do you really think that people living begin the former iron curtain had great lives?

As with nationalism, there are various versions of socialism. In an independent Scotland we would have the society that the majority of us want - that could be capitalist, or socialist, or a North Korean style dictatorship - but the important thing is that it will be moulded by thosenwho live in Scotland rather than those who live in the SE England.

And no I don't think Scots should run their own country because they are somehow better, or different than the English, I think they should run their country because it makes a lot more sense (and the English should be pushing for some form of devolution too).

Toadinthehole · 28/08/2014 12:20

You are misreading my post. I do not believe that following a Yes vote, the English will be herded into ghettos. It is what nationalism can lead to over time that I don't like. I also don't like its tendency to cloud judgement on political issues.

To my mind, the way the indyref campaign has been conducted by both sides demonstrates this so clearly. I reckon the Better Together campaign knew straight off that they couldn't run a positive campaign. Emphasise the great things about being British? Do me a favour. Not on cultural lines at least. Economic grounds? Even that's difficult as the popularity of the Yes claims that Scotland would continue in Europe have been. Legally that really is a nonsense, yet I bet if you polled on that one single question, possibly a majority of people in Scotland would buy it. So they rolled out Project Fear.

As for the Yes campaign: I think it is true to say that they have met reasoned criticisms of their claims in a pretty shrill way. Which is not to say that thoughtful people on both sides aren't talking the issues through. However, I don't think those people have been driving the debate.

It has made for an impoverished debate; one which has left entirely out of account what Scottish independence will mean not just for Scotland in the long term but for the rest of the UK as well. There is so much that could have been considered and said, but none of it has been. While I think that it is pretty clear that Yes will lose (probably by 10 points) I think the damage has already been done. I was disappointed but not surprised about the research published recently regarding English attitudes to Scotland, specifically re Barnett, currency union and so on. The cat is out of the bag.

grovel · 28/08/2014 12:23

Toadinthehole, could you please point me in the direction of the research you refer to in your penultimate sentence? Thanks.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 28/08/2014 12:23

You are misreading my post

You said:

Scottish nationalism is blood and soil nationalism just like any other.

Numanoid · 28/08/2014 12:27

Do you really think that people living begin the former iron curtain had great lives?

That was communism.

Socialism isn't a bad thing if done properly. I don't agree with Communism because it's too prone to corruption, however I think socialism works.
And I also work full-time (and worked throughout my time at uni). Same goes for DP.

Toadinthehole · 28/08/2014 12:30

Itsall

Here.

These are the findings, for those who don't wish to read the article:

  1. Most English voters oppose sharing the pound with iScotland
  2. One quarter of English voters believe rUK should support iScotland's application to membership of international bodies
  3. They believe English - Scottish relations will worsen.
  4. If Scotland votes No, public spending should be reduced to that of the rest of the UK
  5. If Scotland votes No, England and Scotland will continue to drift apart.

WRT your other point, I'm not going to re-explain my posts.

grovel · 28/08/2014 12:32

Thanks.

I only asked for the info. I didn't make another point.

Numanoid · 28/08/2014 12:32

While I think that it is pretty clear that Yes will lose (probably by 10 points)

Really? I don't think anything is clear. Again no-one can say for sure, granted, but I've been hearing of a fair few people turning away from a No vote. Most businesses in my area (all independent bar one, I think) have also put up their Yes posters within the last few days.
I think there are still a lot of undecided voters.

Toadinthehole · 28/08/2014 12:32

Sorry, that was not in reply to you. My mistake.

rainbowinmyroom · 28/08/2014 12:34

Just voted yes by postal ballot.

Toadinthehole · 28/08/2014 12:39

We can only surmise, and after all, there is only one poll that counts.

Still, after well over a year of campaigning, there has only been one opinion poll with Yes in front. That was some time ago, showed a lead of 1%, and has been regarded by pollsters generally as a bit unreliable.

While Yes did have an increase earlier in the year, that increase has pretty much stalled, according to the all the major polls. Indeed, if anything they have become more favourable to No in the last month or two.

While it is true that RIC have data showing strong Yes support in the areas they've canvassed, I will tell you from my own experience of canvassing that you never take people's answers at face value and you always discount the share of the vote you are campaigning for.

As for the bookies, they are offering 4/1 and I'm not tempted, even though the money would console me a bit. They may have shortened in the last couple of weeks, but they were 4/1 a month ago IIRC. A year ago they were 5/1.

Not that anyone should assume that a No in the referendum is the end of it. Not at all...

sconequeen · 28/08/2014 12:41

Well, the debate on the Yes side has not been impoverished in my neck of the woods. It has been invigorating, imaginative, inclusive and inspiring. Maybe you need to get out a bit more.

And it's not about nationalism, blood and soil, or tartan tat either. It's about democracy, self-determination and the ability to create the conditions where the people living in a country can make their own decisions as to how their lives are run and how society functions. Why should Scotland not be able to do this? What makes us any different from the other countries round the world who do this?

Incidentally, one of the discussions with fellow Yes canvassers yesterday showed that we have all been encouraging the many Eastern Europeans living here whom we've met in the course of the campaign to take part in the referendum debate and vote, because they have made their homes here and have the same rights as everyone else here to take part in the democratic process and make decisions about the future. The Scottish Government is already committed to encouraging inward migration. Does any of that that sound like rampant nationalism and blood and soil to you?

PhaedraIsMyName · 28/08/2014 12:42

weatherall I'm also a very regular poster under this name and old name of Caitlin17 (which I changed for very good reason and was quite open about )
Don't have a Facebook account and never use it.
Is that really the best you can come up with?

chocoluvva · 28/08/2014 12:44

weatherall
The no camp never answer the democracy question.

Please read my posts of yesterday and Statistically Challenged's reply of this morning. What you see as the reason for voting yes is one of my reasons for voting no.

I have asked on this thread what the interests peculiar to Scotland that aren't being represented by Westminster are and have got just one example - a greater need for immigration in Scotland than in England. I have no reason to think there isn't a greater need and no problem with the idea of more immigration anyway.

Toadinthehole · 28/08/2014 12:44

Why should Scotland not be able to do this? What makes us any different from the other countries round the world who do this?

This is a nationalist argument. It might be put forward by UKIP in identical terms.

Does any of that that sound like rampant nationalism and blood and soil to you?

It sounds all very proper to me. But giving specific examples of actions that are inconsistent with rampant nationalism is hardly an argument that it isn't there at all.

FannyFifer · 28/08/2014 12:48

An interesting article.
www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/28/closed-shop-deepy-elitist-britain

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