to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

Numanoid I posted yesterday as votingdilemma (broadly pro-Union but don't know if I'll vote) and can only agree with your post.

weatherall I'd love to be part of a secret Facebooky thing but it would never happen, honestly!

broadly pro-Union but don't know if I'll vote

Why not?

I'd love to join a secret Facebook group but then you would all find out I'm really Nicola Sturgeon.

I expect to leave Scotland in a few years so I was rather thinking it wasn't my choice to make as it is a vote for the long term.

I expect to leave Scotland in a few years so I was rather thinking it wasn't my choice to make as it is a vote for the long term.

That's very noble IMO you should vote, you are going to have to live in Scotland for a period of the time after your vote, and the vote will have international ramifications so will still impact you. I think you have a perfect right to vote.

I'm in the same position FallenLeaves, I'm not Scottish (although have lived here for a decade) and don't feel I have any issues of national identity tied up in this. Also don't see myself staying here in the long term.

But I may vote on the day. I do love to vote.

I'm not Scottish (although have lived here for a decade) and don't feel I have any issues of national identity tied up in this.

Its not about national identity, it's about where you live. Many many people living in Scotland are not Scottish by birth (is that how you define it?) me included. Everyone who lives in Scotland will be impacted by this vote, so anyone living in Scotland should, IMO, vote.

Also don't see myself staying here in the long term.

Oops. I am here for long term. C&P malfunction.

Of course it's about national identity. None of this would be happening without it. It is not London or the South East, or any other part of the constituent counties of the UK. It never ceases to amaze me how this aspect of the debate is bracketed out of people's minds. Scottish nationalism is blood and soil nationalism just like any other.

I wouldn't trust either a regime or a person who tries to downplay the value of education. Its a marker of corrupt regimes the world over.

If you think that line of argument will ever convert decent people to your cause, you are deluded.

I find it ironic that the honest art of holding down a steady job is considered so unimportant by those who would consider themselves socialist!

I cant imagine getting very het up and joining in the separatist Flemish movement if I happened to be living in Belgium for a few years!

It depends on whether you bought into some sort of victimhood narrative. Plenty of people fall for it.

The difference is I think all people are worthy, regardless of whether or not they've had university education or are currently holding down a job.

I don't think I'm better than anyone else because I've had the privilege of a good education.

I would rather my taxes paid for every single person out of a job than it paying for those unelected scroungers sitting in the House of Lords.

Just a different sort of benefits system.

Scottish nationalism is blood and soil nationalism just like any other.

With the greatest of respect that is absolute bollocks. You show me anything in the official yes campaigns about ethnicity. The only nationalism apparent in the yes campaigns is civic nationalism which is very very different from what you so offensively suggest.

There's a difference between thinking people are not worthy, and thinking that some viewpoints are more likely to be reliable or well informed. I'm more likely to trust someone who has training/education in economics to have a good understanding of issues than someone with no background in it and who misrepresents information.

I don't think I am better than anyone because I have a good education. I do however think that it makes me better informed than say a family member who failed her standard grades and didn't understand that she wouldn't get 100 euros in exchange for 100 pounds.

There is a hopefully (minority) nationalist fringe. I can't link to it just now (at work) but there are some really awful films going round of screaming crowds at Jim Murphy's speeches.

Empty vessels make most noise....

You are being obtuse. Talking about national identity in direct terms of ethnicity has been somewhat out of fashion since 1945 as I'm sure you know.

Scottish nationalism has, at every turn, emphasised Scotland's separate traditions, politics, identity, and cultural traits. It has accused Westminster of robbing it of its oil which by it thinks by rights ought to have been sold for the benefit of Scotland only. It makes accusations of bullying and lying at ever turn, and plays the victim card repeatedly. And this is just one example of something else typical of nationalism - the foreign villain.

And in any event, Scottish nationalists don't need to play the race card. An independent Scotland would be a far more mono-ethnic nation state than England. This referendum will be determined by the votes of white Scots. Any minority in Scotland is smaller proportionally than the population of Scotland compared to that of the entire UK.

Blood and Soil nationalism is all about ethnicity. That is what I was replying to, there may be nationalism in Scotland, sure, but it is not the blood and soil nationalism that you so offensively claimed.

So quick to take offence. I can't say I'm surprised.

So quick to take offence. I can't say I'm surprised

Do you actually know where the phrase "blood and soil" comes from? And you can't see how you earlier comments using it could be found offensive

Damn fucking right I will take offence at someone using nazi terminology to describe the Yes campaign.

Are you actually for real, I have read some offensive shite on this thread and others but that is beyond the pale.

I hate all nationalism. I find it repellent and exclusive. I am one of the (shrinking) number of people who believe that multiculturalism can be made to work.

What I find particularly odious about Scottish nationalism is the arrogant assumption amongst its proponents that it is somehow immune from the bigotry, prejudice and bias that nationalists around the world display: traits that are caused by a rallying round of "our people".

There is no need to get into ethnicity. It is something that is assumed. In Scotland, this seems to have gone so deep that its own nationalists aren't even aware of it and hence get offended when the fact is pointed out.

FannyFifer I'm shocked that anyone, well educated or not, cant distinguish between people's worth and whether or not they present a convincing argument.

If you are less well educated that someone you are trying to persuade to vote a different way from that the are inclined, dont you think the more well educated person likely to spot the flaws in their argument? And yet you believe this would be the fault if the more educated person?!

And what excuse is there not to be well educated in a country like Scotland? Its something Scots are world famous for. I don't think revelling in poor education and living on benefits represents a true Scottish or even a genuinely socialist attitude at all.

I've noticed a tendency to whine that its not fair when the flaws in their arguments are pointed out to the Yes side and they lack any valid response. Yet they have no qualms about attacking others.

Also the majority of people turning up to shout at Murphy are Labour Party voters, same as the guy shouting at Gordon brown who was a Labour Party member.

I don't agree with the turning up to heckle someone, better to just ignore as no one turning up to listen to Murphy anyway apart from the folk he brings on his bus.