to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

Who is Craig Murray and why would he be listened to rather than someone of the calibre of Professor Adam Tomkins? Why on earth would he influence someone's voting? And why would anyone think that he would?

chocoluvva (And let it be known that anyone who says the Scottish government is women-friendly because they promise free child-care, does not realise that the claim that free childcare is good for women is deeply sexist.) Nicola Sturgeon take note.

Oh I know! I can't decide what is more offensive, the assumption that women only look after children, or that all women are likely to vote on the future of their country on the promise of free childcare, or various other permutations. It is so patronising. And yes, the Scandinavian countries are big on free or heavily state subsidised childcare - they need to be, they have by far the highest number of single parent families in the world, and the highest proportion of full time working mothers.

I have clearly missed a lot of the thread but I wanted to respond to I think it will look quite strange to the rest of the world if we reject independence.

I see this a lot on Facebook - as a digression I am so bored of people on both sides who endlessly seem to copy and paste the same statement - usually phrased as how embarrassing it will be for Scotland if we reject independence. Personally, I am voting No because I believe it is the right thing for myself, my family, Scotland and the UK. I assume people voting Yes are voting because they think that is the right thing (apart from the one person on my facebook friends who is apparently voting yes in memory of William Wallace). What other people or countries think of me has absolutely no bearing on it and I would think less of anyone who made their decision on that basis.

Has anyone been keeping up to date with things in Spain? The Basques are determined to hold their own referendum in early November. Merkel came out in support of the Spanish PM (who is against it) yesterday. She said his position was 'logical and deserves support'.

The thing that stood out for me was that he said 'the referendum would go contrary to "the trend of increased uniting of the European Union."'

It's interesting/scary to ponder.

Indeed.

FWIW - a woman I know who intends to vote yes acknowledges that she is confident in the success of an independent Scotland perhaps because she is by nature an optimist. Sometimes I wonder whether my naturally cautious personality is a factor in voting no. I don't think so.... the questions I've asked about the reasons for voting yes haven't been answered in a way that convinces me.

Yes voters do need to remember that there will be no going back. They need to be sure they're not using a yes vote as a protest against the current government or to get revenge on perceived English cultural imperialism because a lot of people will be very unhappy to be separated from the rUK. And there's always the possibility of more powers for the Scottish government and/or another referendum.

If you think you're voting for a fairer and more just society you're also voting to turn your back on the rUK electorate who also want a fairer and more just society. And will lose 58 non-conservative seats.

I also don't see that there are that many issues being decided by Westminster where Scottish interests are markedly divergent from those of the UK as a whole

Immigration is one I can think of offhand. Another example is that it is ridiculous that the Scottish government is having to spend millions offsetting the bedroom tax.

CoreyTrevorLahey Um Chelsy/LessMissAbs whatever you're going by today, academia is a profession. Why should Bugger's work have any use outside of it? It doesn't need to. She's well qualified enough (and clearly more qualified to discuss her field of study than you*.

You will have to forgive me for never having come across the field of "professional Celticist" before. How nice that you've got a wee friend. I actually enjoyed bugger's links. Academics in different fields have bitchfests all the time, but I find it strange that you think discussing Scottish language should be limited to the rather small number of practising professional Celticists in Scotland. How many of them can there be? 20 or so? I am sure that is not what bugger intended at all, and I am sure she recognises that forcing one academically dubious, particularly when it fails to consider a wider review of the field.

On a more serious note, I along with many others, find the forced Gaelicism of Scotland a bit disturbing. Very few place names can be proven to be 100% of certain Gaelic origin (the link provided by Bugger, good though it is, does seem to try very hard to push that), and no-one knows with any certainty what language the Picts spoke. It is more likely that placenames come from a variety of sources and many have been Gaelicised over time, even if they were not originally Gaelic.

Seriously, when the referendum is over, you should maybe take a holiday. All this pompus snorting and vehemently disagreeing with anyone who doesn't think Scotland is a stinking "jobs for the boys cesspool" can't be good for your blood pressure.

I am holiday - why else would I be free to spend so much time on here! I'm sorry your experiences of Scotland have been so negative, I do agree with you that there is a jobs for the boys culture here in certain places, and I think highlighting that is probably a good thing, although personally I've done well here.

Why the obsession with usernames? I can't remember yours being of particularly long standing, although its not something I obsess over. But if you are attacking people on grounds of their choice of username, maybe the school playground might suit?

If you think you're voting for a fairer and more just society you're also voting to turn your back on the rUK electorate who also want a fairer and more just society. And will lose 58 non-conservative seats.

If the rUK wants a fairer more just society they need to vote for it. Scottish votes are too few to have any impact.

SantanaLopez who needs Angela Merkel and the PM of Spain when we've got Craig Murray and Sean Connery?!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - immigration is the only peculiarly Scottish need that has been identified to me.

The bedroom tax can be overturned by the next government.

I just think it's nice, that as a person who used to go about their day getting things done, not really interacting with people in the street more than a smile, that people are talking so much more. Absolutely, Numanoid. It has been fascinating for me to get involved in a very minor way with campaigning, and meeting politicians/activists from a range of parties. I've also had the experience of chatting with people who've got talking to me because of my badge (No for me, obviously ). I've had a couple of people give me a funny look for it, but nothing more than that (I think the worse attitudes I've had have been online, where people are secure behind their keyboard/screen). I've had some really good chats with Yes voters as well. And I've met loads of new people through the campaign.

Immigration is a funny point.

There's no point having a different attitude (I don't think there is, really, but that's by the by) if you then sign up to the CTA, because it once again gives control to Westminster.

If we don't secure the Schengen opt out, we're under a common EU policy. Again, the different attitude doesn't make one jot of difference. Brussels/ Berlin will decide.

who needs Angela Merkel and the PM of Spain when we've got Craig Murray and Sean Connery?!

The whole celebrity endorsement thing baffles me somewhat (again, from both sides). Although if push came to shove, I would put a lot more faith in the views of Angela Merkel than an ageing actor, and up until today I hadn't heard of Craig Murray.

It was just my thought OOAOML, I didn't mean it to sound offensive, and didn't realise it was a common FB one (not a big FB poster). A lot of referendum does pop up of course, but mainly from pages. I don't think the international reaction will be a huge one either way, apart from making the news due to being an historical event.

I agree with people being different in RL, online has been the only place I've experienced any sort of bad reaction is online. It might sound weird to say, but regardless, I like that people wear No badges/put up car stickers. Although it's a different view from mine, it's nice to see people getting behind a cause, be it Yes or No.
I wanted to have a go at canvassing but heard a horror story and wimped out.

I must live in the same Cloud Cuckoo Land as numanoid as although I've not been to any meetings (thinking of going to a debate on Thurday in Pollokshields), all the discussions I've had have been very well tempered with genuine interest and curiosity as well as passion. On some occasions there has been an agreement to differ - but without any rancour.

The only exception is one friend who gets upset at any form of disagreement - and so we have agreed not to discuss the topic in her presence (and her friends totally respect the reason she is voting the way she is).

I have Tory, Labour, LibDem and SNP friends (I've voted all of those in different local and national elections over the years) I respect their opinions even if I don't agree with all their viewpoints. If Natalie McGarry (SNP candidate for Cowdenbeath) can bidey-in with David Meikle, the "only Tory on the Glasgow cooncil" (he's my local councillor and the relationship is publicly known), then maybe we should follow their example.

Craig Murray - former UK ambassador to Uzebekistan, from which he was sacked. Appears to be a member of an organisation called English Scots for Yes, political activist and blogger. Is he not that notorious one that made highly inappropriate remarks, given his position? Or have I got him mixed up with someone else?

The bedroom tax can be overturned by the next government.

The next WM gov sure, but its up to WM not ScotGov

That always assumes that Labour win the next WM election Is that guaranteed?

prettybird Is the debate a public event? A few people I know have asked for info on debates/meetings in Glasgow.

The bedroom tax has been roundly criticised though - it's not just the majority of the Scottish electorate who would vote for its repeal.

The bedroom tax has been roundly criticised though - it's not just the majority of the Scottish electorate who would vote for its repeal.

Would the majority of the SE England vote for its repeal?

Murray was sacked due to exposing the appalling breaches of human rights in Uzbekistan which was being approved & funded by UK & US.

were not was.

The bedroom tax can be overturned by the next government.

The next WM gov sure, but its up to WM not ScotGov

Well, the Scotland Act gives a range of new tax powers (and apparently powers on air weapons, drink-driving limits and speed limits which I hadn't realised until recently). Alternatively, maybe we could revisit the council tax freeze (which is nice, but benefits the wealthy and middle income much more than it does the poor) and use the funding to offset it (I know the Scottish Government is already making funds available for offsetting).

I wanted to have a go at canvassing but heard a horror story and wimped out It really is fine. I was worried, but I've only had a couple of people be 'mean' to me (and it wasn't really that bad, although I did come home and cry once, but that was maybe because I'm just not used to this). I've had some good chats with people, and even when I speak to Yes voters it is generally fine. I was also very pleasant to the yes campaigner who came to my door . And, just to prove that I am basically a decent person despite voting No , I had a long chat the other week with someone who was leaning towards Yes but didn't feel he should vote because he was in his late 80s and didn't think it was up to him. In a similar way to (I think) OldLady helping people register however they plan to vote, I wanted to make sure he didn't feel he couldn't vote, and that it is so important that people are able to have their say on this. This is a huge issue, and one in which every single vote counts as much as any other (because even although we have list MSPs, we still have constituencies where it would take a massive swing to make any change).

Possibly - they are more affected by the cap on housing benefits than most of the rest of the UK electorate.

TBH, between us we seem to be making a case for more regional representation.

I hadn't considered the issue of regional representation until I started thinking about the independence referendum. I'm an example of someone becoming more engaged in politics generally as a result of the referendum.

I live in SE England and don't think anyone I know (of all political hues) would mourn the repeal of the "Bedroom Tax". A lot of people thought it was OK in principle because it was aimed at helping to solve a very real housing problem (yes, even down here). Loads of young families living in cramped conditions and B&Bs while some public housing was under-occupied. I think most people now recognise that it is a blunt instrument and causes far too many distress stories because of under-supply of alternative housing.