to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

prettybird, too true: the nuttiness of the Conservative views on "welfare", better described as social security, needs to be countered throughout the UK.

I imagine rUK would throw a few fishery patrol vessels into the good-bye package.

Interestingly, as an aside, I just read a comment on a Facebook article by an English person (it was screencapped and shared - I don't know the person myself and am not on FB just now so can't link exact quote).

But to summarise, he said that he is English, living in England, and therefore doesn't have a vote. But he says that if he was Scottish, he would have no doubts about voting Yes, and why wouldn't you take independence if offered? He then said that it would be embarrassing for Scotland if it rejected the chance to be independent. (

I think some Scottish voters are confusing the irritating parochial attitudes sometimes carelessly expressed in british media, eg misuse of the term 'English' when referring to UK/Britain, the attitudes that Scottish (but also various regional) accents are 'inferior' to many south-east English accents, mocking of Scottish icons with a perceived under-representation in westminster. But I think this attitude is changing and isn't specific to Scottish differences anyway, eg jokes about welsh sheep-shaggers, stereotypes about Newcastle women dressing scantily despite
the freezing 'north-east' climate etc. This is not a reason to separate from rUK. And many a Scottish person is guilty of making jokes about 'teuchters' anyway.

So there is a perception that 'the English' don't respect Scotland and therefore we should separate. IMO this is an outdated and irrelevant way of thinking.

I know many yes voters are more responsible than this, but I honestly think this unfortunate cultural history has a lot to do with the wish for Scottish self-determination.

But why vote for something that you 100% believe would be a bad thing just because we have the chance to?

Quebec rejected independence despite speaking a different language.

Numanoid for him it surely comes back to a sense of identity.

He sees a person as either English or Scottish. My reality and sense of identity is very complex and I refuse to have it deemed as embarrassing by a (young?) guy on Facebook!

This is why I don't do Facebook or Twitter I've not got time to teach the art of walking in another's shoes to the yoof of the Internet, it's enough trying to train up with my own kids!

I don't think rejecting independence is something to be ashamed of though. I think that's a perspective that yes voters have because they believe we should want to be independent and that those who don't only don't because they are too scared. I actively want to stay part of the UK rather than just being scared not to be. So I'm not remotely ashamed or embarrassed to vote no.

As an Englishwoman I won't find a No vote remotely odd. I'm glad you've been asked the question and will respect the answer either way.

I'll only be stressed if the negotiations about a split get ugly.

I actively want to stay part of the UK rather than just being scared not to be. So I'm not remotely ashamed or embarrassed to vote no.

Exactly. If something one doesn't want is offered why would one not say thanks, but no thanks.
I see Swinney is pontificating about walking away from debt if they don't get their currency union.

It's beyond daft. They want to be independent but they will still rely on the UK for banking? And does it not occur to him the rest of the UK should have a say in this ?

I'm far more interested in promoting the interests of women than the perceived interests of Scottish people despite enjoying many aspects of Scottish culture.

(And let it be known that anyone who says the Scottish government is women-friendly because they promise free child-care, does not realise that the claim that free childcare is good for women is deeply sexist.) Nicola Sturgeon take note.

Being Scottish is not important enough to me to want self-determination given the geography and history of Britain.

It is just one opinion, I don't think No voters should feel ashamed/embarrassed at all.

I hope the camaraderie on both sides can be spread across both camps after the result. I just think it's nice, that as a person who used to go about their day getting things done, not really interacting with people in the street more than a smile, that people are talking so much more.
Just by wearing a wee Yes badge, people in the street, shops and taxi drivers start chatting away. And the atmosphere at the meetings I've attended has been lovely, people are so positive and friendly, and everybody talks to each other. And likewise for the No campaign, I would assume (only because I don't attend No campaign meetings, etc.)
I just hope that this continues across the board after the referendum, it would be nice.

Craig Murray's speaking as an Englishman in this video.

My bottom line, actually.

I think it will look quite strange to the rest of the world if we reject independence.

Yeah right as if the rest of the world gives a toss about Scotland.

Oh actually President Obama at least does and you do know what his views are?

Numanoid for him it surely comes back to a sense of identity.

True, it was just interesting to see his perspective. I've never felt British, but nationality is just a thing lumped upon us because of where we happened to be born. Although I would always refer to myself as Scottish, it's not used (by me) as a way of distancing myself from British people. I wouldn't look badly upon someone solely based on their nationality.

Yeah right as if the rest of the world gives a toss about Scotland.

In personal experience, it does. Maybe not on a Government scale, but individuals are (tourism), and plenty find Scotland interesting.

Oh actually President Obama at least does and you do know what his views are?

A fig for Obama's opinion.

Numanoid don't know where you are but sounds like cloud cuckoo land. This will not end well. If yes wins there will be triumphal gloating. Many , many people will be profoundly depressed.

If no wins it will be instantaneous "we wuz robbed" and start all over again.

About perspectives: Actor (Ken Stott perhaps?) on a debate programme mentioned that other countries had broken away and gained independence from the United Kingdom - Malta, Canada, Australia, etc. I shouted at my TV "but Scotland IS the United Kingdom" it was never a colony but a partner. First at the Union of the Crowns then later that of the parliaments.

My Scots ancestors were part of the Empire and part of the UK wide Industrial Revolution, moving backwards and forwards and building lives and relationships that spanned all parts of the the UK. So no I don't find it hard to want to remain in the UK, to me with my background it makes perfect sense. I don't find it embarrassing in the least.

If Scotland becomes independent there will be a sense of loss to me. I might even feel a little embarrassed especially if it was on a 51% Yes vote!

I quite agree Obama's opinion is neither here nor there. I merely mentioned it in light of that ridiculous comment about "the rest of the world" thinking it odd if this pig in a poke is rejected.

nationality is just a thing lumped upon us because of where we happened to be born

That's exactly why I don't see the need for Scottish independence. But we are part of the same island as the rest of Britain - the island has a name. From a geographical perspective it makes more sense to have a british government. And separating will have an enormous cost, just for this vague ideal of self-determination.

There are so many more important things to invest time money and effort on.

Craig Murray "It's not possible to be a decent person and vote no."

Tells me all I need to know about that man's logical capabilities I'm afraid.

Numanoid don't know where you are but sounds like cloud cuckoo land.

...Okay.

That's exactly why I don't see the need for Scottish independence. But we are part of the same island as the rest of Britain - the island has a name. From a geographical perspective it makes more sense to have a british government. And separating will have an enormous cost, just for this vague ideal of self-determination.

That's a fair point choco, we just have different viewpoints on it. I get where you're coming from though.

Ugh. I hear statements like "It's not possible to be a decent person and vote no" and I immediately discount everything that person says.

Plenty of decent people will vote No just as plenty of decent people will vote Yes. Reducing it to playground insults does absolutely bugger all except expose that person as an overheated idiot.

No-one should feel embarrassed about which way they're voting, there's no need to.
Saying that the other side, whatever that may be, is stupid/deluded/should be ashamed is not on from either campaign. It annoys me when both Yes and No voters do it, it does neither side any good.

We all have to get on afterwards whatever the vote. I totally respect Scottish Nationalism and the right of people to self-determination as a just cause. I just can't think it an improvement myself.