to start a new Scottish Indyref thread?

[FannyFifer]

Round 2 folks, ding ding!

For me, proud to be Scottish and British, staying the same is a benefit.

This is such a common thing I have seen said Problem is, a no vote in no way means things staying the same

But why not?

There was going to be an option of DevoMax but Westminster rejected it, as I think they knew it would get a lot of votes. So it had to be Yes or No.

IAGTBF: This sounds like Alex Salmond in the debate when repeating the question about job creating powers. Wrong questions imho. I'm not wanting the Scottish government to have too many powers! Their instincts are smothering to business (although I think Scottish Labour are far worse with their UNITE axis.) The French government is all about controlling the details and their jobs market is bad at creating jobs, lucky for the young French that the south of England is nearby.

I don't think national governments have much power to create jobs, if a government did focus on job creation I can imagine it wouldn't work out that well. Far better to rein in ambition and focus on maintaining a stable business environment.

The one policy I wish Westminster would halt is sanctioning of benefits which is a completely retrograde and a vindictively stupid policy. But I want that stopped all over the UK so again not relevant to me in the context of Scottish powers.

Obviously you can tell I'm not a "BT" spokesperson so I can't come up with any better responses to your question!

I am a prime example of someone who could be involved in politics but CHOOSE not to be. This is not because I feel barred by dint of being a woman. I don't even get involved in my local school because the parents have no power compared with English parent governors. In Scottish Education you shut up and accept what's given you by Local Authority. See recent CfE. The local MSP also seems beholden to say that everything is fine and is going to be fine and will always be fine.

To stick one's head above the parapet in public life in Scotland is an unusual thing!

Re the 'Scottish Accent' discussion about what is an 'acceptable' accent in Scotland at the moment:

I am English but have lived in Scotland for more than half my life - 24 years.

My children are both born and bred here and so are Scottish.

They speak with an English accent but use local words; eg they have a shot on the chute, etc.

I was recently told in a Support for Learning meeting that the reason my dyslexic son cannot spell is because he has 'a right English accent'.
This was agreed with by the Head who told us that they 'cannot teach' certain phonics sounds as they 'do not occur in the local idiom'.

I went to the top of the Ed Dept at the local council, where the Senior Lead Education Officer was pleased to confirm that 'accents do have an effect on spelling' and that my other child 'will get on better' as that child has more of a local accent.

I do not see this kind of thing stopping if there is a NO vote, sadly.

First choice, my DS has a mix of Scottish & Irish accent and he has had probs with spelling & had speech therapy as he wasn't pronouncing sounds correctly & writing as he spoke.
For example tree instead of three and was having probs with TH.
It's not picking on someone or making them have a Scots accent to point out there are difficulties.

firstchoice I had a child's spelling issues dismissed as a problem of accent. When I asked for examples none could be given - yes, because said child wrote without the aid of vowels and clearly had other issues! Quite an eyeopener and very saddening. Luckily I was confident enough to not trust the professionals in that case..

Oh & my speech therapist had an American accent.

I remember writing haiku's in secondary school and having an argument with my teacher about how many syllables were in "year".

I can see how different accents would impact on spelling etc garridge/garage etc. The phonics thing us interesting, I'd never considered that, but I'd guess that across the country different letter combinations would have different pronunciations, or is there always a " correct " pronunciation based on RP English?

2 in year though surely?

On the accent issue, it can be a problem in some cases, and not just with Scottish/English accents.

I did part of my studies abroad, and while I can speak, read and write the language of the country fluently, I can only really speak it with the "RP" accent of that country. I had exams which involved knowing the dialect of the area I lived in, which was quite difficult, but would have been simple for anyone who came from that area.

They could have worded it better though, the part that struck me was the "right English accent". I would hope that wasn't meant rudely.

Sorry for hijack but:

firstchoice our schools are excellent if you know the system well. Otherwise it's a case of everyone else knows how it works and it's your fault if you don't. You missed the (obvious to insiders) point that phonics will be taught in one way and if it does not suit your child you must pick up the slack and teach at home.

I call ours the black box education system. Communication works via the medium of telepathy!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine There is always a "correct" pronunciation, and it is always RP (I'm a linguist ). I once turned down a private tutoring job because when speaking to me beforehand, the parents said they would be happy for me to teach their children, but that I would need to (word for word) "put on a proper accent" when doing so. Needless to say I told them "no".

2 in year though surely?

Not in my English accent It was a great haiku too

Numanoid the class teacher in our case was as rude as could be and stated baldly that "The problem is YOUR accent." No looking at where the spelling issues were occurring.

I was told he cannot spell because he 'speaks like you, with a right English accent'. Cue much laughter and sneering. This is not right.

He has been assessed by an Ed Psy as being 'exceptionally able and fluent' and his IQ is really high. But he struggles to write and spell phonetically.

I cannot just 'pick up the slack and teach at home'. My son is dyslexic - he has a right to tailored Support for Learning for his learning disability. Not being mocked for his accent.

He has also been called a 'dunderheid' a 'doughnut brain' and 'lazy'.
All by staff in this 'excellent' school.
We are moving we have no choice but it is not right for a child to be told that his learning difficulties are because he 'speaks like his English parents'.

Neither of the teachers involved in those situations sound nice, if it's an issue then it should be with professionally.

I don't get why accents can be such a big deal in day-to-day life (outside of teaching and learning etc).
There are some accents I find difficult to understand at times, but no doubt people will sometimes have the same problem with me. I just don't see any reason to be rude about it.

firstchoice I'm sorry, I was not saying that you should have to pick up the slack but that this is how (poor and lazy) systems can work; and all the while the parents with successful children and who have networks around the school think that theirs is the best educational system in the world. Aye, right.

I found the labelling of struggling young kids as "lazy" another noticeable thing about the schools in my current area. It's a poor show and unprofessional. Best of luck to you and your son.

I was told he cannot spell because he 'speaks like you, with a right English accent'. Cue much laughter and sneering. This is not right.

No. Its not.

Numanoid accent is not and has never been an issue in my child's spelling. I have a non-standard accent and was always a spelling whizz as I would recall the written word. My child has a problem with dyslexia and cannot reliably recall spellings.

The teacher had an axe to grind tbf.

but genetic research has surely shown certain alleles found only in Basques and what are believed to be Pictish areas.
And most of western Ireland. Although I doubt anybody sane would argue that Irish Gaelic is not the native language in Ireland, whatever they may have spoken prior to that. Or subsequent to that.

The UK, I believe, gets money from the EU to promote indigenous minority languages - as do many other European countries - but they certainly agreed to promote them, money or no. Apparently, they decided that bilingual roadsigns were the cheapest easiest way of doing this. I don't suppose it matters to most of them exactly where those signs are put up.

Voting - I see where you are coming from now.

Sounds like we have had similar experiences.
Children with educational disabilities are not lazy and it is not their parents accent (learned by them) which is at fault. Clearly if RP was the default 'standard accent' (wrong in itself) then to have issues with a child who speaks RP (ish!) is nonsensical anyway.

I did speak to an Ed prof about this and said: 'would they have made that remark if I was from Japan or Nigeria and had those accents?'
and she laughed and said: 'what do you think, of course not, Scotland isn't racist!?'. But it's okay for the English then?

THIS is what is wrong. That this casual racism is acceptable.
I don't see that changing in the event of a Yes or No vote, sadly.

firstchoice: Yes there are true dunderheids out there and it's not the 7 year olds with spelling issues!

Positive benefits of staying in UK:

continued membership of many internationally renowned organisations/regulatory bodies etc

continued advantages of sharing the same landmass/coastline

continued added value of having a large, prestigious city as capital

continued experience of having a long-established democratic political system

continued shared established currency

continued international influence

continued membership of the EU (as a long established member we don't have to negotiate everything)

continued 'friendship' with America (maybe a mixed blessing)

Disadvantages of setting up as an independent country regardless of the rights and wrongs of the idea of self-determination and regardless of the actions of rUK or situation peculiar to Scotland/rUK

a new border will be created

need to negotiate with a different country - likely to result in new grievances and even if it doesn't, a huge cost in time, human resources and money - surely that effort could be better spent on constructive projects

Scotland would be a country that dismantled an existing longstanding partnership despite the rest of the partnership not having a say

Unless there is a huge majority yes vote, a very substantial portion of the electorate will be very unhappy about being separated from the rest of their country; not a good basis for a new start

Scotland will be working for what is best for Scotland, regardless of what is best for the whole of Britain. You may claim that Westminster has done that in the past - but that doesn't make it acceptable for Scottish politicians to act in the very same way they criticise other politicians for.