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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder how you're voting in the Scottish Referendum and why?

999 replies

deeedeee · 23/08/2014 11:17

a month away from the vote thought it would be interesting to ask

( no bunfighting , derision or soundbites please. just yes or no and why. feel free to post more than once with different reasons. No links unless independent fact or opinion, nothing from the official campaigns)

I'm a YES

because Westminster's failed to protect the vunerable and the UK's me first politics have taken us down a particularly nasty path. An independent Scotland leans towards to left and can potentially choose a better route. And if a change happens in scotland then I think that that could inspire a change in the direction of politics in the rest of the UK.

OP posts:
PlasticPinkFlamingo · 24/08/2014 10:35

The thing about being a small country and having a much, much bigger country as your largest trading partner is that the smaller country always, always compromises in negotiations - you need them more than they need you. That will be the situation post independence. Canada & the US are a good example of this.

And I cannot believe some people actually think UKIP has a snowball's chance in hell of forming the next government. They'll be lucky to get one or two seats. I admit they're currently having a nasty influence but that is just likely to be a flash in the pan.

Independence affects the future forever more. Would people be so keen to leave if there was a chance of a strong vote for Labour in 2015 and a big swing to the left?

How many of the current yes voters would have preferred devo max over straight independence?

Beastofburden · 24/08/2014 10:37

It's a key question. Is there any option other than a fully independent currency which means that iScotland is governed by Scotland? I don't think there is.

I think it would affect rUK so I do think it is important to know where we stand on this before a vote. I think leaving this until afterwards is a bit dishonest of the politicians.

chocoluvva · 24/08/2014 10:37

Alec Salmond fell for Donald Trumps' deeply unpopular development too and not only supported it but pushed it through despite massive objections to it. It hasn't delivered anything like the revenue it promised.

Beastofburden · 24/08/2014 10:39

Nobody seriously thinks ukip might form the next rUK government, do they?

WhatTheFork · 24/08/2014 10:42

There's the potential for a UKIP/Tory coalition. Boris Johnston (next Tory leader??) and Nigel Farage aren't known for their love of Scotland, that's for sure!

machair · 24/08/2014 10:52

Interesting article in Moneyweek by Sean Keyes from March 2012 "Why an independent Scotland must abandon the pound"

Alex Salmond wants out of the UK. He wants a sovereign Scotland, independent of London for the first time since 1707 – and he might have the votes to make it happen. His new Edinburgh parliament would be free to tax, spend and legislate as it pleased. But Salmond and the SNP are happy for London to retain control over one important part of Scottish life – their money.

Under the SNP’s plans the new Scotland would retain the British pound. Scotland would continue to import monetary policy from the Bank of England at Threadneedle Street. Why does a strident nationalist like Salmond want London to run Scotland’s money? And why does this matter?

Ireland’s lesson for Scotland

Ireland left the UK in 1922 after a long and terrible struggle. Irish nationalists glorified ‘Grattan’s Paliament’, a short and prosperous period of Irish sovereignty at the end of the 18th century, and they imagined that independence would lead to riches.

It didn’t. The country started out respectably wealthy on the eve of World War 1, but its performance for most of the rest of the century was dreadful, and it slid down the European income league.

From about 1920 to 1990 Europe’s wealth converged – the countries that were poorest at the outset like Spain and Greece grew fastest, and the richest countries like Britain grew most slowly. But Irish wealth fell, then did not recover.

The new country’s first leaders were conservative. Despite their nationalism, they decided that the new Irish pound would stay pegged to the pound sterling at a rate of 1 to 1 – so that in monetary terms, Ireland never left the UK.

Ireland’s economy adjusted slowly to life on the outside. Trade with Britain dominated exports for decades, growth was slow, and the people emigrated in their droves. A currency helps a nation to adjust to changes in its circumstances. Ireland did not have a currency, and it did not adjust.

‘Short cut’ to a stable economy

Exchange rates are utterly flexible. The pound price of dollars adjusts every second of the trading day. But the prices in our lives are not like that. They adjust slowly, and variably. If they’re the price of labour – wages – they adjust very slowly, and they don’t easily adjust downwards.

If everyday prices were as flexible as exchange rates, there’d be no need for currencies. Prices would adjust instantly to match supply and demand and clear markets. ‘Nominal rigidities’ – in economics jargon – mean that this doesn’t happen. Discovering the right price level is a slow process of trial and error and it can take years.

‘Rigidities’ have important consequences. For example, employees hate wage cuts. So when employers need to cut costs, they tend to fire workers rather than cut wages across the board. This means that when the demand for employment falls, it can take a long time for wages to adjust to bring the market back into balance.

A national currency is a short-cut. It’s how a country works around the problem of inflexible prices to ensure its output is priced right – not so cheap that there’s not enough supply to meet demand, not so expensive that there’s not enough demand to meet supply.

Say Scotland were to launch its own currency after independence. If it underwent a ‘shock’ – like a plague of midges that kills demand for holidays in Scotland – the Scottish exchange rate would adjust to cushion the blow. It would instantly make Scottish holidays cheaper relative to French holidays. Scots wouldn’t be able to afford to leave and foreigners would be tempted by the bargain prices, so people would holiday with the midges.

Without the exchange rate short-cut, the shock would look very different. The midge swarm would scare off tourists, foreign and domestic. Prices would only fall after a long, painful period of grinding deflation and unemployment.

Or another ‘shock’ – say Israel bombed Iran, sending the price of Scottish oil soaring. Now, money would pour into Scotland. That would fuel inflation, asset prices and debt. A national currency would mitigate this by rising in value. Without a currency, the country would be at the mercy its own rising prices.

Money is too important to delegate

Of course, Scotland doesn’t have its own currency at the moment and it does OK. But there’s a different adjustment mechanism right now – transfers with the UK exchequer. A shock in Scotland means money moves across the border from (or to) the south to help with the adjustment. That might be money going north to pay for unemployment benefits during a midge plague, or money going south to prevent inflation during an oil boom. That’s how the different regional economies of the United States fit together. Booming Texas sends taxes to Washington, depressed Nevada receives spending from Washington.

So there are three different ways a country can adjust to shocks. Its currency can adjust; it can send or receive capital across the border from another state; or it can work the shock through the system by slowly discovering billions of new prices at ground level.

Leaving the union would leave Scotland with no easy way to deal with shocks. An independent Scotland wouldn’t get transfers from London and its currency wouldn’t adjust either. The burden would have to fall on prices. That could mean overheating and inflation during a boom and unemployment and deflation during a bust.

Ireland understands these adjustments better than most. Eighty years after Ireland delegated responsibility for its money to London, it delegated it to Frankfurt. When Ireland first joined the euro the ‘celtic tiger’ was nearing its peak. With no control over monetary policy or currency; and no fiscal transfers within the eurozone, the economy roared ahead… for a while. Capital poured in, the property market went into the stratosphere, wages and prices followed.

Since 2007 Ireland has faced the other type of shock. Nobody wants all the things it used to produce. If it had its own currency, its value would adjust to reflect this. If it were part of a bigger state, it would receive transfers from the whole. But it’s neither, so the adjustment has to come from prices. As Ireland and peripheral Europe show us, finding prices is a slow and ugly process. On the way up it meant rising inflation and debt, on the way down it means mass emigration, mass unemployment and social unrest.

Alex Salmond wants an independent and prosperous Scotland. If he succeeds and Scotland’s economy roars ahead, leaving the rest of the UK behind, their shared currency means a crash won’t be long following. If he gets independence, but can’t deliver the prosperity, it’ll be tougher than ever for Scotland to catch up. The fact is, political independence would be cold comfort without prosperity, but monetary dependence could preclude that prosperity. If Scotland is to go it alone, there can be no half-measures: it must abandon the pound."

blackcats73 · 24/08/2014 11:22

I'm reading this with interest as I don't have a vote and haven't followed the debate .

If the yes voters are correct an independent Scotland would be a socialist utopia , I'll probably move there,

Best of luck whatever you decide . Smile

cunexttuesonline · 24/08/2014 11:29

I checked the assertion from rooners that the financial services companies would definitely be leaving scotland and I found this in the herald, definite risk, but another thing to be worked out -

Council Directive 95/26/EC from 1995 states that banks must have their head offices "in the same member state as its registered office".

As a result, it was said that both the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds, both of which have their registered offices in Edinburgh, could be required to move these south of the border.

The directive was described as being untested in the courts, with no case law existing for it.

Those campaigning for Scotland to stay in the United Kingdom said the report highlighted the "uncertainty" of independence.

But a spokesman for Scottish Finance Secretary John Swinney insisted banking jobs "could remain exactly where they are now".

He stressed the Scottish Government's proposals were for an independent Scotland to have "shared system of regulation" for banks that would be "fully compliant with the EU".

WRT the shipbuilding, my understanding was the clyde was the best place for it, due to all the investment there.

I'm a yes btw. It's a risk either way and I am all for self determination. Better together would have more of a leg to stand on if the UK wasn't in a mess itself.

PhaedraIsMyName · 24/08/2014 11:34

Alec Salmond fell for Donald Trumps' deeply unpopular development too and not only supported it but pushed it through despite massive objections to it. It hasn't delivered anything like the revenue it promised.

Salmond falling over himself to curry favour with Trump was not a pretty sight.

IrnBruTheNoo · 24/08/2014 11:40

"The point being we're always at the mercy of those with the power. I'd rather those with the power at least represented the country they govern, understand and care about it. That's what independence means to me."

That in a nut shell.

Beastofburden · 24/08/2014 11:41

If we get a Tory/ukip coalition then I am moving to Sweden Grin

chocoluvva · 24/08/2014 11:43

Then there was that strange business of Al Megrahi being released from prison and receiving a massive welcome back home in Libya.

And the pledge to have lovely small primary school classes which I think, but I might be wrong, fell by the wayside on the grounds of cost (and possibly practicalities) . Hopefully someone can set me straight on this.

And the free higher education for Scottish, but not rUK students - but massive cuts in college courses.

not to mention the hash they seem to be making of the new exam system

chocoluvva · 24/08/2014 11:44

If Gordon Brown hadn't been so difficult to work with we might have had a tory/labour coalition in 2010....

chocoluvva · 24/08/2014 11:53

those with power at least represented the country they govern

Despite being a no, that makes total sense. IF your sense of nationhood is strong and significantly different from the political union. And if it isn't going to cause massive disruption to the rest of the political union. And if a huge majority of the nation really want to be independent. Which doesn't seem to be the case here.

I don't have a strong sense of being Scottish rather than british and I don't think the differences between Scotland and the rUK are significant. (The last government was labour)

So I understand the wish for independence for nations in principle, but in the case of Scotland and rUK I don't think that Scotland separating from rUK is desirable or necessary for justice.

JudysPriest · 24/08/2014 12:02

I can't speak for every child Choco, but the primary my son attends has classes of 16. If there's a bigger intake they have two classes instead of one. When we looked round local schools this was the case with all local to us.

Our son's teacher left in the middle of last year, I'm friendly with the head. She refused to have the two classes merged into one and got another teacher in for the interim.

I'm about to embark on a free college course in order to help my job prospects.

Maybe this accounts for the higher % spending per person in Scotland. I see scot gets x% more here and there as a reason for No, but I see it as a positive. If I were in England I wouldn't be asking why do Scotland get more, I'd be asking for it too.

A previous poster mentioned fighting poverty with Education and Scotland in my humble opinion is giving lots of people a damn good suck of the sauce bottle.

I love what Scotland has done with the powers it has, I am excited to see what will come next.

sums up my thoughts on the NHS under iScotland.
chocoluvva · 24/08/2014 12:07

That's great to hear about the small infant classes. Glad I seem to be wrong. Smile

PhaedraIsMyName · 24/08/2014 12:14

It will be the Scottish government's job to support them.
That's the simple reality

Except that won't stop the "isnae fair" brigade expecting the UK to prop up Scotland's shipbuilding industry and whining about it when it doesn't happen.

Oh and as for the "building Scotland's own navy" comment. What a joke. Yes, let's waste billions on a Scottish navy and of course we'll have to have Scottish embassies worldwide too (packed full of Salmond's pals in the desirable locations)

PhaedraIsMyName · 24/08/2014 12:19

Re class sizes this is from official statistics.
How big are classes?
In 2006 the average Primary P1 class size was 23.1. The latest census (December 2013) shows a reduction to 21.2, an increase on the 2012 figure, 20.6. Secondary class size information is not generally collected.

And that is an average figure. Scotland has lots of tiny rural primary schools which will keep the average figure down.

Snapespotions · 24/08/2014 12:24

And that is an average figure. Scotland has lots of tiny rural primary schools which will keep the average figure down.

Yes, DNephew's P1 class in an Edinburgh primary was around 30 kids. Popular school though, so might not be typical.

PhaedraIsMyName · 24/08/2014 12:25

Edinburgh's primary school class sizes on the rise

gu.com/p/2kd54

And in Edinburgh increasing despite the fact Edinburgh is relieved of the burden of educating 25% of its school age population by the private schools.

JudysPriest · 24/08/2014 12:26

Not keen to give out my location but we are within 40 mins of Glasgow and in a city.

StatisticallyChallenged · 24/08/2014 12:28

Edinburgh school situation is a joke, close a bunch of schools despite rising birth rates then end up with overflowing schools where they have to build on the playground or teach children in halls, libraries or corridors.

chocoluvva · 24/08/2014 12:38

Apparently there were fewer teachers last year than in previous years.

SquirrelledAway · 24/08/2014 12:44

Scottish primary school class sizes are capped at 25 for P1, 30 for P2 and P3, and 33 for P4 to P7, and 25 for any composite classes. Our primary is running at full capacity, and is struggling to accommodate pupils for lunchtime.

Chunderella · 24/08/2014 13:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.