to think the police shouldn't be able to lie in order to get a confession?

[JenniferJo]

Friend's son A went to the cinema with friends on Saturday night. He was walking home alone when a police car pulled up and he was arrested.

A woman had been assaulted in the city centre and he fitted the description. He's a very "young" 18 and was frightened. He didn't think to ask for a solicitor or to ask to phone his parents. He was aggressively questioned and told they had him on CCTV committing the assault and it would go better for him if he just confessed. He at least had the sense to keep denying it.

Long story short he was released without charge but his parents are fuming. It transpires that there was no CCTV evidence the police deliberately lied to try to get him to confess.

They are going to make a complaint, obviously.

But it has set me wondering. What if he had done it? Is it OK for the police to lie to get a confession when there was actually no evidence to back up their claims?

Just skim read this thread and haven't got much time to join it. But...

NIcknacky and Ziggyzoom, I see the points you're trying to make (obviously), but can't you see that given the enormity of police corruption that's come to light over the last few years and the overwhelming seriousness of it, your arguments look rather ridiculous? Rather like a serial offender saying 'Yeah, but, you know, there were days when I was law abiding, I paid my taxes. Sometimes helped the old bird next door with her shopping...'

You aren't making much sense. Whilst previous events have been awful and will take the police service as a whole a long time to recover it's not a representation of policing as a whole.

Police constables who investigate general crimes, to be honest, aren't corrupt! They get on with the job and if mistakes are made then that's exactly what they are. Mistakes, not corruption, setting people up. Quite frankly, I don't care enough to set people up. I have plenty of opportunity to charge the people who the evidence suggest have committed crime.

I haven't said that though have I? I have said that corruption, criminality, ineptitude, impropriety or whatever it is MUST be dealt with. I am asking you to put it in perspective. You are unwilling to do that, so be it.

FWIW - I work in Leeds, not really a rural backwater! I am currently spending a lot of my time trying to get rid of an officer who refuses to take Domestic Violence seriously, but that won't fit with your preconception- will it?

LastMango, I'm not sure I understand your point? There is thousands upon thousands on crimes reported each year and the vast majority are dealt with correctly and I'm proud of that. I can't bear the cross of mistakes that were made which I had nothing to do with and I won't personally accept the responsibility for.

Believe you and me, when I had someone come at me with a knife it didn't make the news. When I gave CPR on a riverbank that didn't make the news. When my teeth were dislodged that didn't make the news either. That's everyday policing, not corruption.

To use your analogy lastmango it is rather more like saying - you have a serial offender living on your street - well despite the fact that you may actually all be law abiding and pay your taxes, we are going to consider the whole street as corrupt!

Nickynacky, why on earth would any of the incidents you describe in your last paragraph make the news?
You seem to be suggesting that you think they are somehow newsworthy.

They aren't newsworthy because they are everyday events, that's my point. Not many jobs have those "benefits". But yet events of previous years define the forces as a whole. I've probably hated by many of the people I have dealt with, but that doesn't worry me. They hate me for a reason.

Ziggyzoom, living on the same street as someone is very different to sharing a profession with them (or should be...)
And there have been a few more that one example of police corruption.
Do you not realise that 'bad apple' arguments don't really wash now?

Nickynacky, are you trying to say that as a police officer you are very heroic and therefore you shouldn't have to hear that nasty old criticism of the few bad apples?
Or did you not realise that your job might be stressful in some ways?
You seem to be suggesting that working as a police officer is somehow more stressful than other jobs, and therefore you should be above criticism.

That is the point of an analogy, the 'street' is representative of a police station. A town would represent a police force perhaps. It is an analogy, not a literal representation.

Does every Gp get tarred with Harold Shipman? Or every nurse after Beverly Allitt or Colin Norris? To mention but a few.

No they don't because they are the minority, the exception to the rule.

Bangs head (own head, just for clarity) against wall.

No one here has said, 'hey, some of us are good, so can't you just ignore the bad uns'.

We are saying the majority are good, doing a difficult job under increasingly difficult circumstances for ever decreasing rewards and just cut us a bit of slack and don't castigate us all because of the wrongs of the few.

Investigate the corrupt officers, send them to jail, sack them, whatever is appropriate, but keep their actions in perspective.

Nope I wouldn't describe myself as heroic but I've been in situations that many members of the public cannot imagine. And I have known officer who because of their actions, I would describe as heroes.

My job can be very stressful, no doubt about that at all. I'm also in no doubt there is more stressful and less stressful jobs out there but as I don't do them I can't comment.

But not many jobs involve the risks that the emergency services face, and I include fire and ambulance in that.

Having given evidence at a misconduct hearing where an officer lost his job, I'm well aware of the criticism that we face and rightly. But we can't all be accused of being corrupt, incompetent etc.

Ziggyzoom, yes, I know it was intended as an analogy, my point was that given the degree and amount of extremely serious police corruption that's been uncovered, and also given the difference in dynamics between relationships between those living in the same street and those in the same profession, it was an extremely poor analogy, and seemingly just another weak version of the 'bad apple' argument.

Nickynacky, no, every GP doesn't get 'tarred with Harold Shipman'.
Nor does every police officer get 'tarred' with the presumption that s/he is 'corrupt'. But it seems that there may be serious problems with corruption within the profession - and if there were as many Shipman-esque examples of dodgy doctors as there are examples of serious police corruption, then many people probably would view the medical profession with the same suspicion that they currently view the police.

According to threads like this police officers get tarred with every brush. Police corruption is not widespread and you are mistaken of you think otherwise.

Mistake of the past haunt the future but job one is willing to accept that whilst it is a cliche, lessons have been learnt. Bad news always makes front page, good news never does.

nickynacky I think it is interesting that you mention the NHS because I think they too are being subjected to a press war of attrition waged by this privatisation-hungry government. This article makes a good point about why we shouldn't believe everything we read in the press and why we should fight for the NHS. I feel the same about our police service, but I really don't think many people see it yet.

Ok Lastmango - back up your assertion. Which incidents are you referring to? When did they take place and how many officers were involved?

Then we can have a sensible discussion about how endemic and widespread this is.

Thanks Ziggy, I will have a read of that in the morning as I'm heading to bed. I'm in mat leave at the moment and it's threads like this that makes me think "why do I bother". I have met many many fantastic cops in my years and we do our best to put the right people behind bars but even then our interview technique is criticised by people who wouldn't have a clue how to interview!

( I'm not referring to you, Lastmango)

I don't live in the Met area. I live in one of the "shire counties".

I'm not anti police, despite a few bad experiences as a student. I'm godmother to a retired senior policeman's son and like to think I've always been supportive of our police forces (Met excepted) and have had good personal relations with several over the years.

This has surprised me and made me want to make sure that young people I know realise the first words they need to say when talking to the police are, "I want a solicitor." I think that's sad.

The "bad apples" picked on the wrong family this time.

My praise of the police upthread referred to the Metropolitan Police btw - certainly don't think corruption should be swept under the carpet but all I can go on is that the many police officers I know through work (central London borough) and through family (outer London borough) work incredibly hard to do the right thing and are hugely frustrated by their high caseloads and the impact that has on their ability to offer the service victims deserve.
I have seen police officers get jaded and start to believe that the world is a bad place (which is understandable considering the things they face) and I think that cynical mindset can impact on your ability to do your job. I think the Home Office would do well to properly understand the impact of long hours, inability to strike, increased workloads, and witnessing horrible crimes. We won't improve the police by vilifying those who are working hard to do their best.

As a white, middle class, well educated victim of crime my impression of the police has largely been positive.

As former criminal lawyer (prosecution and defence) my experience was woeful. I have seen evidenced lying more times than I can count - in fact I would say it was the norm. I've personally dealt with cases where notes have been falsified, exculpatory evidence withheld or destroyed, obvious collusion, planting of evidence, numerous breaches of PACE including a police force who saw nothing wrong with dragging two teenagers out of bed and forcing them to stand naked while the male was questioned and then couldn't comprehend why there was an objection to using those notes as evidence.

I've had police officers that are under oath harangue me outside court for the line of (totally legitimate) questioning that I pursued; seen video evidence that contradicts the sworn testimony on at least 6 occasions. When prosecuting I have heard them ridicule victims of crime, make crude jokes re sexual assaults and admit that they lied because "we know he's guilty so it doesn't matter".

Dealing with the police was one of the most depressing parts of my job.