to be shocked at 4 year old attacking a little bird and her mum not doing anything

[littleSpud]

I was at my friends the other day and my dd (5) and friends dd (4) were playing in the garden

my dd came running in really distressed saying is hurting a bird!!! please come and stop her!! I went out to find friends dd chasing this poor little creature around whacking it with a tennis raquet, I took it out of her hands and said (feebly, as I daren't tell her off as its Not The Done Thing in my circle of mates ) awww please don't hurt the bird! I think the poor little thing might have been injured to start with as it clearly couldn't fly off :(

well her mum did not give a shit and barely even told her off, I made my excuses to leave just after that and I don't think I want to go there for a while tbh :(

i think her dd is a spoilt spiteful little sod anyway (she bullies and dominates my dd the moment my back is turned) but I think twatting a living creature with a blunt object goes beyond the normal realm of four year old naughtiness. and I am disappointed in her mum.

(she also has pet rabbits, I fear for them tbh )

I would distance myself, she is not on the same level as you. Obviously she thinks nothing of hurting animals.

Because in until that age they don't understand the full ramifications and consequences of that action.

However a 4 year old would know that hitting hurts. They wouldn't think about the birds parents or necessarily about how the bird feels about being hurt, or the fear the bird feels, or the consequences for the breeding population.

But she knew she was hurting the bird, and she should know that this wrong, and the mother certainly dies not have the excuse of age.

That is hideous. I'm amazed you managed to refrain from telling the child off, that's just bloody cruel behaviour, horrid horrid horrid. I'd avoid future get togethers and if the mother asks why, tell her that you don't want your DD spending time with a family who think that sort of thing is ok.

The only other child I knew who was cruel to animals - and whose parents didn't react - ended up with a diagnosis of autism.

Really sad., but there's no excuse not to stop children being brutal.

Children who are able to cause distress to animals probably [on the whole] won't go on to be murderers.

It illustrates a lack of empathy and should raise concerns amongst a reasonably intelligent adult about that child's thought process.

That the age of criminal responsibility is 10 doesn't alter the fact that many 4, 3, and even 2 year olds demonstrate empathy, and distress at cruelty and unkindness.

If my child wasn't like the OP's, and very upset at witnessing that, it would be very out of character for them.

My 5YO DS, especially, would have been horrified by that.

I don't know why it is 10 to be honest.

If you don't understand cruelty at 10 you are lost.

I hope your dc wasn't too upset op, mine would have been traumatised. My lads would have attacked the boy at 4.

We all love animals here.

Criminal responsibility at 10 is one thing.

Children below that age who actively seek and are then cruel to animals deserve scrutiny, it's alarming.

My aunt once told me off for picking leaves off a hedge as we went by and explained why and that made me feel guilty. A bird jesus christ. That's upsetting. If I had a kid who did this I wouldn't know how to react. If it was someone else's kid I'd have had to walk away very fast (scooping up the bird as I went!) to keep from making a scene.....very restrained OP.

I worked in a young offenders' prison for about 18 months. Many of the young men there told me they had been involved in abusing animals when they were younger - it was tolerated and even encouraged in their families and neighbourhoods - thought of as funny

And your personal field observations are supported by a large body of research.

Bustar I know you didn't mean any harm by it but I just would like to say that a) an autism diagnosis isn't automatically a sad thing and b) it's quite probable that his hurting animals has nothing to do with his autism- autism isn't the whole person.

Wondered how long the thread would be before autism got a mention.

My 10 year old has the empathy of perhaps a 1-2year old. He is beginning (but not reliably) showing egocentric empathy (he will, if he sees very obvious signs of distress offer comfort in the forms that he finds comfort - so he will give a hug, like I do for him).

He also has very low emotional literacy - so low all direct work is stopped

He's not cruel to animals tho - in fact it's thundering here and he's worrying about our pathetic Jack Russell who is scared of the rain

It's learnt behaviours to care and not hurt - however he has only hurt an animal once - a ladybird which he stomped on to see inside...

Please don't stereotype

My daughter - who has v recently turned 5 was removed from a background of abuse and neglect.

She would be in some serious trouble if I caught her doing this.

And I'd have had absolutely no problem tearing a strip or two of a child I caught doing it (in fact, I did exactly that when happening upon some older children throwing stones at swans. I'd have done exactly the same if they'd been younger).

My DS 16mo has empathy.

I was cracking DH's back earlier by walking on it. DS saw and started to cry, he thought I was hurting his dad. He already knows how to be gentle to the cats, and that he is removed from them if he is too rough.

I would completely expect a 4 year old to know what she was doing was causing pain, and I fear I wouldn't have been able to stop myself from telling her how naughty it was.

I hope your ex friends reaction was borne of embarrassment rather than not caring. I'm another one who would report the rabbits welfare to the spca.

Dayshiftdoris absolutely.

I wouldn't be friends with this person anymore. Her DD will only get worse.

Short sharp lesson in order from parenting style 1960's/70's ~~~mists of time roll back~~~ Do you know what that feels like for the little bird? No? Whack. Now you do. Do it to the bird again and I'll do it to you again, do you understand?~~~mists of time roll forward~~~

Yanbu.... That is vile and cruel behaviour and it makes me wonder what kind of parenting she receives. Awful. I couldn't be around a parent or 'friend' who didn't give a 'shit' about that.

Thank god. An aibu that's really serious and we agree.

Yanbu op

YANBU OP, I wouldn't want anything to do with a person who raises her child to think that's fine and thinks it's funny, what a vile individual. If she can laugh off her DD hurting an animal, what is she as an adult capable of doing to one.

She sounds a horror and the Mother even worse. I don't think I'd want my DD mixing with people like this. You have to make a stand somewhere.

OP I think I would be seriously reconsidering spending anymore time with this friend.

I wouldn't be too hard on the child as, at four, some children still haven't developed a very good sense of empathy, although admittedly it is be quite unusual for a child of this age to be behave like that.

But for the mum to make so little of it and not even have a stern word explaining why she shouldn't hurt an animal, I just couldn't be around someone like that I'm afraid!

Dayshiftdoris Yes, which is why we need to look at the child's behavior in a broad lens not just a one off incident.

My cousin has SEN's and when he was younger he just didn't realize his own strength and would hurt animals (and people) on accident because he was too rough with them. He just didn't have the empathy or understanding to feel terrible about hurting them either. He was given a big dog (not a puppy) when he was older since he was too rough for smaller animals and it was perfect for him. The dog loved rough housing and he loved the dog and learned to be gentler (and basic responsibility). I think it'd be very unfair to make a character judgement about him based on his ability to treat animals. Other than playing too rough, he was a great kid, and me and him were best friends growing up.

I have another cousin that was badly abused as a child before he was removed from his home and he spends his summer rehabilitating baby birds that he rescues from his cat. I'd dare say that he's very passionate about not hurting anything because of how he was treated.

But as I said, in this case I think we need to look at the mother for not teaching her daughter not to hurt animals. If she's never been taught not to do that, you can't fault the child for it, not at 4 years old anyway.

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I caught a nephew of ours hitting one of my dogs once (totally unprovoked) when we were looking after him. He went to his room for the rest of the weekend. He literally set foot outside the room to go to the loo and that's it for the next 36 hours. DW said I was too harsh but I don't care. He's never been invited back in the 2 years since.

Sorry, but this is just appalling, and abusive.

Confining a child to their room for 36 hours and never inviting them again 2 years later is beyond an over reaction. He had better have been a teenager to warrant such an extreme response.

Curiosity is not an excuse for abusing animals, whoever said that earlier in the thread. As a child I never once hit a bird, stood on frogs, cracked opened birds eggs nor did my sibling, because we were taught to respect our fellow living creatures and I'm sure the majority on here would be the same.

At 4 years old I would expect a child to be interested in the bird because it was something out of the ordinary, not a bloody ball for my tennis racquet. This thread has saddened me and shame on the ones justifying his behaviour, it simply is not on.

With all due respect ADHD

You do realise that had that dog he was hitting had turned on him and bitten him, that dog would have been removed from the family possibly PTS. Tht boy could literally have been responsible for a death at worst and long term trauma making him hard to rehome at best.

No 36 hours is NOT harsh for that kind of consequence!!!!!