to wonder how Scotland's decision will affect england?

[LEMmingaround]

Just that really? If they do go their ownway how will it affect england?

Also will it open a can of worms with wales and northern Ireland?

Sallying, are you married to Mr Darling? Watched a video of him saying exactly those words, just the other day...

(It's ok, you don't have to answer. )

My fairer society comment - up thread - is based on the distribution of political parties graphic. Devolved nations and regions consistently vote for parties further left regarding economic policy.

That means in favour of supporting institutions which are for the public good via taxes (libraries, NHS etc), in favour of higher taxation on the wealthy in order to redistribute capital and in favour of tighter regulation on big business including workers' rights.

I don't think Scottish politics is perfect by any means, but the political middle ground there is just different. In a way I feel much more comfortable with!

Sorry should have added - the graphic is on the Political Compass site. It also has a really interesting quiz that helps you 'map' where you are politically. Apparently I am way closer to Gandhi and Mandela than any of the big 3 British political parties. Would explain why I usually feel deeply uninspired by Westminster politics!

OldLady
No. DP has been saying this for months. I think it's taken for granted in banking circles - I doubt if Darling invented it.

If the plan to join the EU they will have to. Have the euro

Salmon says he's not using the euro and Spain have said they will block any joining of Scotland to the EU

If they plan not to join the EU which would be a death nail for any small country they could try to adopt the pound if we let them which we won't so what's his plan B and I am amazed people would vote for going solo when he's not even sure what he will by his tea cakes with

Chelsy, are you any relation to LessMissAbs? Your posting style and (frankly offensive to former residents) references to the Soviet Union are quite familiar.

I believe that Scotland has much more to lose from independence than rUK. The latest polls suggest that many Scots feel the same.

However, if it is a "yes" vote, then I wish Scotland well and genuinely hope it turns out to be the right decision for them. For the rest of us, I doubt it will make much difference to our everyday lives.

The global economy is increasingly centered on big cities, especially a limited number of big business centres of which London is one. Independence for Scotland would not make London's influence on Scotland vanish. It would only mean that Scotland had even less influence on what happened there.

But in answer to the op, while I imagine a Scottish departure would have little economic impact on rUK, it would constitute a denial of 300 years shared statehood. I think that would be very sad. Mind you, a lot of the damage has already been done.

Having lined in Scotland, I have no love for nationalists of any stripe. What makes Scottish nationalists worse than others is what struck me as a willful blindness to their own hypocrisy. They have been dishing out the slanders and snide remarks for decades. Now they are getting some back, they should not complain.

The financial services wont choose to relocate their headquarters, they have to. EU financial services regulations require that the head office of an operator to be domiciled in the country where the majority of their customers live. So RBS, HBOS, Lloyds, all the life companies will HAVE to move to south of the border.

Further, without a lender of last resort no rUK citizen or company, or local authority will bank with a bank that has no backing or underlying liquidity.

So anyone in rUk that has an account with any organisation north of the border will need to move money fast in the event of a yes vote. I know a lot of small business already looking to move accounts and policies.

Also by failing to take any debt, you dont get any assets. That includes any rUK assets, buildings, companies owned by HMG etc etc. Also all data processing by HMG on UK citizens must take place in the UK - therefore all HMG computer centres, DWP, HMRC facilities will have to move. Further all shipbuilding will have to move. So following a yes vote - every single HM employee resident north of the border will be served notice of redundancy. bearing in mind HMG is the employer for 61% of the working age population in Scotland (thought that includes councils) it would be a bit of ropey start - adding a million or so unemployed.

So for rUK - lots more jobs, more industry, more tax take as the finance companies move south. UK would enter a golden age with lower taxes, higher public spending and greater contentment.

Please, please vote yes.

Scotland wont be in the EU - you have 18months to apply after independence. But you are behind Ukraine and Turkey in the queue. You have to take the Euro as part of a new membership application and you have to have 2 years in the ERM to qualify. So no chance of getting free movement in europe until 2020 at the earliest. But for the dim of thinking - there is no such thing as EU citizenship. You are currently a British Citizen.

The pound is not an asset it is an accounting tool for a currency. It is the nominated currency unit for the UK. It is issued by the BOE, some Scottish banks can issue notes under license - they are not legal tender but can be exchanged at a bank. They are legal currency - not legal tender. In the event of Scotland leaving the UK it can ask to enter a currency union or use the pound without backing (see above on that one) demanding a union on threat of running away from debt would a) create emnity in the rUK, your largest trading partner and government whom you wish to underwrite your pensions? and b) create uncertainty in those who are the largest buyers and traders of government debt. (guess which city is the largest trading zone for sterling demoninated government bonds?)

Where plan B to create a new currency - against what foreign reserves will it be backed? Oil is a traded commodity and subject to shorting and the day to day carry trade - the currency will bounce up and down and be subject to the largest market for trading in Brent Crude (again no prizes for guessing).

So based on current form it will be a bag of spanners of a mess. But again - do please vote yes - cos - down here it will be rather peachy :-)

apologies - all rUK military shipbuilding will have to move. not all shipbuilding. But since the only major builder is BAE - it pretty much amounts to the same thing

or.... or you put your fingers in your ears and shout la la la la - seems to be the tactic of many yes voters.

There is some strange thinking going on in the No camp. Darling says cu will lead to economic u which will lead to political u, so what's the point? We'll end up back where we are now anyway. But he also says there's no way back if we say yes. Which is it?

Fishewife (and others before her) says Spain won't let us into the EU, but we'll have to use the Euro. Which is it?

Or one can take a realistic look at the possible and likely outcomes and conclude that independence will work out just fine for scotland, very unlikely to be massively disastrous, very unlikely to make us all millionaires over night. We'll get along just fine.

See all those ex colonies competing in the Commonwealth Games? Don't see them regretting their independence.

We don't have to have massive financial centres, or the worlds most expensive armed forces, we just need enough to have a decent country where we can all live. A country where those actually living in that country make the decisions.

You do realise that Scotland creates wealth in its right? We don't just exist on the largesse of rUK.

With independence sure we may have a bit less money coming in, but we'll have less going out.

Doesn't seem contrary to me. As the rest of the UK are not offering cu then their is no way back. The stuff about having to use the Euro is nonsense though -Scotland is free to use the Pound, or the Euro, the US dollar or the Yen or whatever. No one will stop them.

ocelot It is a truism that the countries with the best off poor are those with a centre right government.

Ah, sorry, BarbarianMum, I should have added that when Alistair said that, he was still agreeing that cu was logical and desirable for both sides. Before "there will be no cu" was written in to Project Fear stone.

I know this is a long thread but has anyone definitively answered the question about whether rUK will have perpetual Tory government if Scotland leaves? I've done a search and can't seem to find anywhere this was answered...

I wish the Scots well whatever way it goes but I'll be sad if they do wave us goodbye. Especially if it means Tory govt forever.

I know this is a long thread but has anyone definitively answered the question about whether rUK will have perpetual Tory government if Scotland leaves? I've done a search and can't seem to find anywhere this was answered...

Depends if the SE England keeps voting or not. Scottish votes have no impact on the overall result, one of the reasons given for independence.

Edam, rUK will only get Tory gvt in perpetuity if they vote for Tories. Scottish votes have only affected the outcome at WM twice in the last 50-odd years, and those two gvts ruled for a combined total of 22 months.

The Euro thing is simple.

An independent Scotland can choose any currency it likes. If it's application to join the EU is accepted. Part of the Lisbon treaty is that all new entrants must agree to move to using the Euro. A timetable is set that includes a two year period within the ERM to harmonise exchange rate policies and bring in economic polices under the control of the ECB. This timetable is separate to the accession treaty and entry date. The euro transfer day is set for the Feb on the year after the accession date. (due to lower sums of cash in circulation). There is a period of interchangeability before the previous currency ceases to be legal tender.

the points about less going in and out are indeed true. But the amount coming in will be quite a bit less and the less going out wont be nearly as much. The sums are complex but -but you will probably be ok on one front. However - you will have a spike in unemployment and a significant move in tax paying industries out of your country. You wont be able to afford highly compeititve tax rates until you can run a deficit.

You wont be able to run a deficit until you can issue debt
You cant issue debt without it being denominated in a currency
The debt will need to be backed by the government and paid for.

Which currency will you be using?

Do you know which country has the largest oil reserves in the world?

Hint1: - It isn't anywhere in the middle east.

Hint2: - They are an avoidedly socialist country
Hint3: - It is an utter basket case.

Not saying Scotland would be - but a lot of massively unpopular decisions would need to be taken - the sort that create riots, austerity, hunger. But its ok - your police has been armed on the QT...

OK, so there's no need to panic if I don't want the NHS sold off? (Current trade deal EU is negotiating with US is very very worrying...)

No - it wouldnt have had a Tory govt under the 1st Blair admin.

and Old lady - the UK had a labour government for last 13 years with Labour MPs from Scotland holding high office. There are Scottish MPs currently in government and the opposition.

You do know that most of the work gets done by the HOC committees dont you? Labour MPs chair a significant number of them - they do much of the holding the executive to account (like the PAC)

Oddcommentator, which currency do we put into the ERM for 2 years, in order to join the euro?

Edam, both Labour and Tories want to sell off the NHS. Sorry. You could always move to Scotland, register to vote before Sept 2, and vote yes.

Odd, Labour would have been in charge all those years even without Scottish MPs. Our votes don't change the gvt in charge (though they may give a larger majority.)

Also as far as I was aware countries had to agree to join the Euro at some point in the future, and as a precursor had to meet ERM conditions for period of time. However, no requirement to meet ERM conditions so don't meet them = no Euro?

Not sure euro is a bad thing anyway though?