to wonder how Scotland's decision will affect england?

[LEMmingaround]

Just that really? If they do go their ownway how will it affect england?

Also will it open a can of worms with wales and northern Ireland?

Didn't that grassroots organisation turn out to be London-based, as well?

Incidentally, I don't think it's all that surprising that people who are against independence haven't noticed a bias in reporting.

Honestly, I don't pay that much attention. But I suppose my point is - has their been much new, positive pro Indy stuff to report? What has come out that hasn't been reported?

Its just a matter of opinion, not evidence. Ut doesn't seem to be even up to the usual standard of academic research as it starts off itself from a seemingly non neutral viewpoint.

I'm afraid i don't share the No campaign's opinion on how gullible Scots are. How stupid would you have to be not to see through even subtle bias? That's not the impression I get of the people around ne. Quite the opposite in fact. I suspect treating people as if they are gullible and stupid isn't really a vote winner, but no doubt you will tell me black is indeed white or at least grey because someone somewhere has found fading!

Yes FindoGask, cos Yes voters are, erm, totally unbiased themselves. Every Yes voter I know screams bias every single time their is an anti-indy story.

I'm not claiming to be unbiased- I'm pretty partial! But to dismiss the argument that reporting is biased because you personally haven't really noticed it, as you haven't been paying attention (your words) seems more than a little wooly-minded.

I didn't dismiss it, I said I didn't agree with the examples given and I hadn't personally noticed it. I am allowed to have that opinion, and not all academic research is equally robust or reliable. With "not paying that much attention" I meant that I don't sit with a little tick sheet as I watch the news going "pro indy, anti indy", and I responding to a comment about this week specifically. No, I can't actually remember exactly which pro and anti indy stories were on the TV news this week.

So sod off with your "more than a little wooly-minded. I'm far from wooly minded.

Yup. Mind like a steel trap

Let me ask a different way - without worrying about particular stories would you consider that mainstream media has encouraged you to vote yes or encouraged you to vote no. Statistically I need you to pretend for a second that you are the sort of person who would be swayed by the media

Speaking personally it seems to me that there is uncertainty on both sides but it is always presented as

Pensions in iScotland may be lower as opposed to higher
Scotland cant continue to use the pound (of course it can)
Oil reserves are declining as opposed to new fields opening up
No cross border transplants (lie)...

What I'm trying to say is the media is unremittingly negative about the future of an iScotland. They could easily spin the numbers positively instead. They also don't report the negatives of remaining in the UK.

I know we don't LOL on here, but LOL nonetheless ItsAllGoingToBeFine. Someone once made the mistake of taking my user name as being serious - I think I drowned them in statistics

TBH, it is hard for me to say which way the media would sway me. I have a pretty large BS detector and having seen a fair few unrelated things being grossly misreported I do tend to go to source info when I'm interested!

But - looking at what is on the BBC news website just now (on the "Scotland Decides" page - is it just me that gets a mental "dum dum dum" when I read that!) my opinion based on a speed read:

Scottish independence: Australian PM Tony Abbott's comments 'offensive' - not sure this is hugely biased, it headlines with Salmond's response. I'm referring to the reporting not the comments! WOuldn't steer me in any direction.

Scottish independence: UK government sets out island powers proposals - could be biased in that it doesn't ask the Yes campaign opinion. Probably should have. Wouldn't steer me, might steer an islander.

Scottish independence- Lord Reid makes appeal to Labour voters - definitely an anti story! But tbh it reads to me as "politician from party A slags off party B, another politician disagrees with him". Wouldn't convince me of anything but then I'm not really party political - actually the thing that most puts me off getting involved in politics is that there's no party that speaks to me!

Scottish independence: Yes vote 'will protect policing' - A very Yes focused story with a reply by BT. Might steer me to Yes.

Scottish independence: Economists offer rival viewpoints on currency issue - don't think this is particularly biased. I don't think it's that well written mind and I think it leaps about a bit but it's not really one sided. Would probably steer me to No (but I think currency is a weak issue for the Yes campaign)

Daily question: What might independence mean for Trident? - fairly even handed IME - which way it would steer you would really depend on your views on nukes I think.

"Scotland cant continue to use the pound"

I haven't seen that one. I have seen "Scotland can't have Currency Union without consent of the other party" though,

"So sod off with your "more than a little wooly-minded. I'm far from wooly minded."

You might well be, but that's certainly not how your posts came across! I don't know you, so even if you've got a brain the size of a planet I can only really go on the words you've written here. But at least you've now taken a cursory glance at one page of the BBC news website to back up your argument: I certainly am greatly reassured.

FindoGask, your username takes me back to my art school, Optimo and West Princes Street all night long days in the early-mid 2000s! That is, if you're referring to the band, not the place.

Findo, I was responding directly to a request to consider news stories specifically. News stories have not really influenced my views as I tend to do my own research - doesn't mean I haven't seen them, but that I don't bother taking notes of how many pro and anti stories there are. In response to ItsAllGoingToBeFine, I was looking specifically to give her my view on the current stories and what impact I thought they would have.

I do not need you to feel reassured. If you choose to misinterpret my posts, then have fun. But you are taking them out of context and choosing to interpret them to match your own agenda. But of course, it's far more fun to try and say the NOs are stupid, or haven't done their research, isn't it?

www.bettertogether.net/blog/entry/leave-the-uk-leave-the-uk-pound
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26166794

Just a couple. Bear in mind that many people do not read past the headlines. And both these articles state that Scotland cannot use the pound ( meaning in formal currency union but not making it at all obvious)

Its a bit of an own goal by the Yes campaign, to allege that much of the Scottish electorate is too gullible and wooly minded to be able to be informed on the question of independence. How on earth would Scotland manage to be independent if indeed such a large number of its population were so dim?

It really is a fallacy constantly pedalled by many Yes supporters. They seem to believe that a large proportion watch tv and read newspapers, only to exclaim "Yes! Of course! That's it. I will reject all my relevant qualifications, knowledge and work experience gained in my life as this Daily Record/STV programme/MSP is the fount of all knowledge instead".

Its not as if to any reasonably well educated person its particularly hard to work out what would or would not happen in independence, insofar as the parts that are predictable.

I do think this constant pedalling of the idea that voters are uninformed and easily persuaded by tv and other media is incredibly patronising.

except by using the words "currency union" you mean?

that was in response to "not making it at all obvious"

Take the Wings over Scotland thing. I've lost count of the number of times I've been advised to "research" this so that it can show me that Yes is the correct solution. It isn't even a formal source, but an online blog. Its difficult to discover who it is written by, or what their qualifications are (perhaps someone on here could give the answer to this) but I'm willing to bet quite a lot that they have lesser qualifications and experience than several of the more erudite posters on here.

I did, in the interests of fairness, read some of it. Its absolutely awful. There are places where it descends into paranoid ranting and its like reading the writings of a madman. Apparently it has been criticised for not being a proper independent source, such as a published source, and it has now self-published a Wee Blue Book which has pleased the Yes supporters immensely, as they are mistaking this as something equivalent to a source which has gone through the selection process required for publication by a mainstream publisher.

You wouldn't make it up...

except by using the words "currency union" you mean?

Both articles state that there will be no currency union, therefore Scotland cannot continue to use the pound. This is incorrect.

Chelsy I remember your views on Wings from our earlier threads. Please pick out something stated as a fact in Wings that is incorrect.

And you may think the WBB is shit, but 250,000+ downloads so far, plus an fundraiser that has so far raised £50000 in about 24 hrs suggest that many many people do not agree with you - and you are just one vote(assuming you are eligible)

Also, please feel free to pick out a particular fact from the WBB that is incorrect.

I would suggest that anyone of reasonable intelligence, who has not already done so, looks at some of the Wings over Scotland stuff. I personally don't tend to mince my words (as shown on here) but I'm actually quite shocked by just how abusive and intolerant much of the language on there is. Its like an advert against independence for any reasonable, decent person who doesn't buy into all that stuff.

Anyway, read it for yourselves. If that's an indication of what an independent Scotland would be like, I should imagine they'll have to do quite a lot of recruitment to make up the numbers on independence.

The comment about the family - "you would think they would be able to find a normal family" are utterly vile.

wingsoverscotland.com/more-ordinary-voters/#more-59854

Itsallgoingtobefine I'm not going to correct the Wings stuff for them! They need to pay a business advisor to do that. Normally someone would charge rather a lot of money for doing that for them!

I can see nothing wrong with the link your posted Chelsy unless you are objecting to the tone of some of the comments? (Which any reasonable person would realise is where the nuttier fringes lurk - see any site that allows comments)

Itsallgoingtobefine I'm not going to correct the Wings stuff for them! They need to pay a business advisor to do that. Normally someone would charge rather a lot of money for doing that for them!

I'm not asking you to correct them!

You stated that Wings is not a reliable source of information. I am merely requesting that you back up this statement with some evidence, eg an example of something presented as a fact that is incorrect.

Itsallgoingtobefine How much time do you think people have to carry out your instructions for free? I don't actually want to troll through any more of that abusive stuff. It actually sounds like the authors hate rather a large number of the Scottish population, or at the very least despise them. I think the Wings website speaks for itself. If its authors are deluded enough to think that it will persuade people to their cause, then let them publish that stuff.