to wonder how Scotland's decision will affect england?

[LEMmingaround]

Just that really? If they do go their ownway how will it affect england?

Also will it open a can of worms with wales and northern Ireland?

I've wondered too. Being oil rich is always mentioned, but the much higher than the UK tax burden, even in spite of being oil rich, isn't. Funny that.

Norway's oil fund is sitting at $826 billion at the moment. Their pension fund holds 1% of the world's stocks. The taxes are high but the people of Norway are looked after.

UK's pension fund was plundered by Gordon Brown and co. Our pensioners as a consequence rely on unreliable private pensions and a state pension paid for by the current workforce. The population is ageing. You don't have to be an economist to work out that it's not sustainable.

The North Sea has more retrievable oil at the moment than has been retrieved to date, due to better extraction methods (directional drilling, for example).

Would you mind taxation that high?

The state pension was always paid for by the current workforce - that's not new. It's never been a funded scheme. Gordon Brown's "raid" was a tax change which affected private schemes and meant many final salary schemes closed - but in reality they were already in massive decline and they had been closing for decades before that. They'd have closed anyway, it might just have taken a bit longer.

But, since we're on the subject of Gordon being bad. If Scotland had got independence say 30 years ago, where do you think the Scottish born, Scottish Resident and Scottish elected Gordon Brown would have been practicing his political skills...probably...Scotland?!

That's if he'd been voted in at all.

I know Brits who have lived and worked in Norway. Tax is high but working hours are low and annual leave is good. Pay rates are brilliant (certainly in O&G).

Nursery places are standard. Mat leave ( from memory of a friend who had hers there) is two years.

I don't agree that aspiring to a Norwegian standard of living is particularly a good idea. Whats so great about Norway? High taxes mean actually not that great a standard of living. The health system isn't that great - be prepared to travel hundreds of miles for a working x ray system or wait until the doctors return after the long weekend. Road pricing in fairly minor towns is common and public transport isn't that great and is expensive. Approaching 1 million of that small population on benefits too. Its difficult to appreciate just how expensive Norway is, but I have a friend there who pays c.£300 for a cut and colour in a non-major large town.

Although perhaps it is interesting because much of Scotland's oil is located off Shetland which might want to be part of Norway, then again which might one day vote to be independent itself.

I've always thought Scotland was more like Denmark, or at least the rural east Central lowlands. Denmark, another expensive Scandinavian country with generous welfare benefits. And a massive budget deficit and national debt.

I find it a bit Aryan-superiority to aspire to the Scandinavian countries so particularly. They are quite close, but so is Belgium. Ethnically, the typical Scot looks quite a lot different to the typical Norwegian or Dane (with some exceptions) and they don't really have that laid-back phlegmatic calm Scandinavian vibe.

But, since we're on the subject of Gordon being bad. If Scotland had got independence say 30 years ago, where do you think the Scottish born, Scottish Resident and Scottish elected Gordon Brown would have been practicing his political skills...probably...Scotland?!

Would have been nice if he had had much of a proper job first! Correct me if I'm wrong, but most under-performing politicians tend to be career politicians, whether they emanate from Westminster or Holyrood.

I don't think Scotland is aspiring to be like anything other than an independent version of Scotland. A country governed by itself.

These other similar sized countries, Norway and Denmark, eg, are being held up as examples of independent but small countries that manage, that's all. Scotland doesn't want to become them. Or at least, that's not how I see it.

Well, we can only go on the evidence we have for whether Gordon would have been elected in an independent Scotland but given that he was elected in Scotland, it's not an entirely unrealistic assumption!

ChelsyHandy - agreed, politicians need to try actually, you know, working first!

But there are equally small independent countries which aren't managing particularly well, which are never mentioned (conveniently). Ones which have gained independence more recently and are therefore more relevant. Such as Lithuania and Estonia.

How much oil resources do Lithuania and Estonia have? iScotland probably won't try to be like them either.

I've always wondered why Norway was held up as such a shining example too, I'm my experience wages are about 1.5x UK (before the huge tax) and cost of living us around 2x. Normal people there cannot afford to go out to dinner or have a couple of pints on the weekend, things that people doing equivalent jobs here take for granted. The only thing I can see that they do very well is parental leave.

As I said, I don't think the Norway tax position would impact any voter in Scotland. It just seems to be presented as a stand out example, yet it has some major drawbacks that aren't ever mentioned.

The Nordic countries all have high vat rates 24/25%, plus vat on food 12\15%. I would think it would be political suicide for any government to impose that in the UK or an independent Scotland.

I've been in Norway through work several times. It's a beautiful, clean country. The houses are stunning. Food out is much the same but drinking is very, very expensive (though not much more than London prices). Wine and beer are less expensive than spirits.

I've not seen enough of it to claim any great knowledge but it is a hugely pleasant and beautiful place to visit.

How much oil resources do Lithuania and Estonia have? iScotland probably won't try to be like them either*

I don't think there is much deliberate trying in the de-population and outward migration to larger, wealthier countries that the Baltic states are experiencing, along with shrinking economies.

But at least property is cheap!

Did anyone see the Andrew Neil programme tonight? It was... interesting. (BBC2, 9.30-10.30pm, "Scotland Votes: What's at stake for the UK?, possibly on iPlayer.)

I didn't, DH wanted to watch the programme on Egypt. What did you think of it? Might manage to watch it on Thursday - campaigning tonight

I'm going to an industry talk tomorrow which present the conclusions of the treasury "Scotland analysis" - should be quite interesting I hope. Especially since it's not a crowd where they'll get away with bad science or more importantly, dodgy maths and stats.

I genuinely did find it interesting, OOAOML. There was much talk of the loss of international prestige and status when Trident goes, a resurgance of "Englishness" (not in a bad way) and the possibility of reforming politics south of the border. They also confirmed that the MoD have done no contingency planning in the event of a Yes, because of fears that if they did, Alex could say, "Look, they believe it's do-able." I'm still hoping that's some kind of massive bluff... I mean, really, no thoughts about what to do with WMD?

Happy campaigning, hope the weather holds for you. (It's quite pleasant here atm.) :)

Well, I kind of work on the assumption that the 'MoD does as the MoD does' and that if they had done contingency planning they wouldn't necessarily talk about it on national TV. I thought there were meant to be government contingency plans on all sorts of things? As a fan of 70s 'cosy catastrophe' genre I always thought that would be a really fascinating job to have. Getting paid to sit around musing on 'what ifs'.

Not too bad weather just now. Worst session was when it was hot with really heavy rain. Sweltering in raincoats and trying to keep the leaflets dry

OldLady from what I can gather a lot of places (both government and big private companies) are refusing to commit any sort of contingency plans to paper/email - anything that could "get out" basically!

I'm sure that the really big decision makers have had conversations, but they won't risk it being made public. Probably true on both sides [grr]

Where are you campaigning OOAOML out of interest?

Think I will probably be doing some phone work tonight Statistically as that's easiest to fit in after work. I've been doing some weekend door to door canvassing as well - there are teams in various areas of Edinburgh (actually across Scotland but I stay very local - not used to having to fit this kind of thing in to the whole work/children/keeping on top of the house equation).

Likewise - registered with BT ages ago, but never actually got round to going out campaigning. Suspect I'd be terrible at it

There are people doing door to door stuff tonight but don't think I can get there in time. I was really nervous first few times, but it has been fine. I've only had two people be really off with me, most are fine.

Funny thing is, I had a job as a teen doing door to door surveys in Wester Hailes/Sighthill. You'd think I'd be fearless after that