To want my usually lovely friend to stop harrassing me about Forever Living

[Pestopastaagain]

She has recently got involved with Forever Living. We used to be in touch every month or so via email, text or fb (We live opposite ends of the country) but since she has got involved with this it's every single day more or less. She sends chatty messages but always drops in 'Have you thought about it some more' 'They are really good products' etc. Another mutual friend told me she has also been emailing her the same thing, again and again and again. Mutual friend and I have both already told her we're not interested in becoming part of it but we wish her luck and hope it works out.

What has happened to our usually sane and lovely friend? It's impossible to have a conversation with her without Forever Living being mentioned repeatedly. It's like she has been taken over by a cult or something the way she keeps going on about it.

I looked into the company and it seems to be a MLM company. Some of the articles I have read make it seem like a very fine line between that and a pyramid scheme. A lot of people also saying they made no or very little money trying to sell inferior products at an inflated price.

She's not made any money yet but is playing a well off future down to them. Is she kidding herself, has anyone here been selling these products and made any money doing it?

That's a really interesting analysis of MLM versus pyramid schemes, AgaPanthers. I had wondered whether there was some legal structuring which could "pass" a pyramid scheme as MLM, but that indicates that it's the nature of the product itself. Do you know the name of the legislation covering MLM? I'd like to read more about it.

AgaPanther,

I am not sure why you seem so full of upset towards the MLM business model, is there perhaps some sort of personal story behind it? If you wanted to share (privately), I'd be very interested to hear what happened to make you so against it. I am not being antagonistic, I would really just like to understand what makes you so outraged.

Incidentally, there is a very serious story behind why Herbalife was investigated and who stood to gain by it (and they were of course cleared). I can elaborate if you would like to know more.

Also, you seem to say that it's both a pyramid and a sales job (it can't really be both). Which offends you more, if don't mind me asking? I understand that there are people who look down on sales people but every product in this life has to be sold by someone. Why do you feel that selling is dishonourable? In any case, for a lot of MLM companies, there is a lot more to it than simple selling. With our company, we offer one to one coaching and personalised customer care which goes FAR beyond sales.

I don't mean to aggravate your feelings about this any further but I really am interested to understand what seems to be the problem.

Sometimes people object to the MLM approach of 'friends and family' first. If someone is being harassed, I totally agree with you. No one should harass anyone, least of all their friends and family. But if you come across something great, the natural reaction is to tell your closest and dearest. Most often what happens is that people notice the change on you (for example, it might be from losing weight) and they ask YOU what it is that you've been doing.

We have been in the business for 4 years and do virtually all of our retail through referrals (from happy customers). At our Wellness Centre, there is a book available to browse through, with page after page of before and after photos of people we have helped and who could not be happier with their results (and who keep their results - a very important point). My husband and I and all the coaches in our team are proud, every day, of the work we do to help people.

Considering we live in an age where obesity, diabetes and CHD are every day killers, it would be amazing if anyone, even on this interesting forum, would seriously thinks of us as 'ah those evil MLM people, just look at them making their friends and family and the general public slimmer and healthier, how dare they'. Or perhaps if we did the same work, but didn't earn any money from it, that would make it okay....I don't really understand the argument. Is there anyone on MN who works full time and doesn't get paid?

In terms of most MLM-ers making little money from it, well there is some truth in it, but that's because it is first and foremost meant to be a part time business, earning people £200-500 per month. It's meant to be done alongside the person's normal job. Very few people go into it looking for full time work, we also started off part time and have progressed slowly to the point where we now earn a good full time income from it. I would never advise someone to just chuck their job in just like that.

Do only some people make a lot of money from it? Okay, but how many people make a lot of money in your company? In any company? In any business? 90% of "normal" small businesses fail in the first 3 years anyway. Why should MLM be any different? Anyone who thinks that MLM should be the only business on this planet where EVERYONE makes tonnes of money from it is, in my opinion, looking for that proverbial pot of gold hidden behind the rainbow.

I completely understand that this is not for everyone. That's absolutely okay. There are many things in life I can't do, but this just happens to be something I excel in. Why would that be a problem, for someone who doesn't even know me, my business, the MLM business, or anything about my life? I'm baffled by the strength of the negative emotions displayed on here...

I don't have a problem with MLM but I would have a problem with being marketed at by friends.

I personally would have no problems in telling her to leave me off of her marketing list as I'm simply not interested in her products, just her friendship.

But you are mostly making people slimmer and healthier for a short period of time. All these quick fix weight loss schemes are successful because they don't generally work in the long term. Yes people do lose weight but who can live off shakes in the long term? I have spent years yo yo dieting with my weight going up and down and as a result I have completely fucked up my metabolism. I was able to do this because I was desperate to lose weight and all these schemes/fads fed my desperation. And guess what - I am still overweight 20 years later. So I don't think people who sell this stuff can really kid themselves that they are doing everyone a favour. If it worked there would be very few overweight people!

Sorry for the rant - it's something I feel strongly about.

Aleksandra, AgaPantheris free to be as vague as s/he wants about personal circumstances.

You've been pretty vague and suggestive yourself in passages such as : " Incidentally, there is a very serious story behind why Herbalife was investigated and who stood to gain by it (and they were of course cleared). I can elaborate if you would like to know more."

Pretty vague...

Sales jobs are needed, of course, but jobs which pay only upon a sale are not suitable for most people, and it's entirely appropriate to flag up warnings about commission only work. After all, we are living in a time of high living costs and insecure employment, in which a commission-only job should be approached with CAUTION.

Public discussions like this one, about network marketing companies and their products, are also quite appropriate, as these are (or once were!) potential clients, and if they are already pissed off and turned off by these household names, that's a business obstacle I'd like to know about before committing myself to a job or business!

I used to do a lot of business networking so came across loads of women doing Forever. All of them without exception spent far far more time "building a team", trying to persuade other people to sell the products than they did actually trying to sell the products themselves, which tells me where they make their money.

In any normal business, you'd want as little local competition to sell the same or similar products as possible. The only reason to spend most of your time trying to recruit lots more people in your area is if you make no money selling the product anyway, therefore make money convincing other people that they will make money selling the product.

In any normal business, you'd want as little local competition to sell the same or similar products as possible.

YES!

the one thing all those products have in common is that you can buy the identical item for considerably less at a shop. That is because a shop does not have the huge overheads of the multi-level (clue in the name!) marketers.

selling useless or overpriced items is not illegal. We can all choose if we wish to waste money. I choose not to do so.

ps nothing you put in your mouth helps you lose weight. It's what you DON'T put in.

Alexsandra, all pyramid selling is a sales job, but not all sales jobs are pyramid selling.

All very interesting and civilised :)

I didnt interpret AgaPanthers post as agressive in the slightest Aleksandra. In fact the opposite. I read the post as knowledgable and well informed. Your post was passive aggressive. You used lots of emotion laden words in your post: Upset, Outraged, Offended to describe her. I just didn't read that level of passion or hatred from Aga.

Ive personally never had good experiences with FL sales people.
I had a woman phone me at work every 8 weeks or so. She was over friendly, like we were friends catching up, whereas we'd never met. She was not trying to sell FL products but trying to get me to sell them.

I used to see patients at home, several times I visited a couple, both vulnerable and with learning difficulties. They had FL products that they had paid hundreds for. If you saw their house you could see that they didn't have that sort of money available to spend. When i asked them why it had cost them so much the FL sales person had said they had to make it worth her while coming to see them.

This is good, everyone enjoys a good debate :-) And of course everyone is entitled to their opinion (although I wish some were more factually correct). I am sorry if I sounded passive aggressive in my post - that was not my intention. It's sometimes hard to get across the right sentiment, in this format (written, online, speaking to people you don't know etc). I may have also not taken AgaPanther's comments in the spirit in which they were intended - maybe she is not overwhelmingly negative about something she doesn't know a great deal about, and is in fact as interested in a balanced discussion, as I am . It does, however, surprise me that people who do not work in MLM are seen as better informed about it than someone who does. But no problem.

Purfectlypurple, I am really sorry to hear you have suffered from yo-yo dieting and it must be so frustrating for you. I am unfortunately not able to comment, without knowing details of your dieting/medical history. Where I will disagree, however, is that using nutrition products for weight control = yo yo dieting. Our company has had 100 million customers over the years, and currently has around 60 million customers globally. Something, somewhere, must be going right, despite the occasional individual variances. We personally have had hundreds of customers who have kept their results. We also have a handful who didn't. Reasons are complex, but the number one reason is that behaviour change is hard, for most people. Our job as coaches is to help with that, amongst other things. Education is key, and to make a permanent lifestyle change.

Our company absolutely does not advocate shakes for life. It is a healthy active lifestyle company that tries hard to educate people about the facts (and myths) of nutrition and to help them to change their lifestyle to a healthier one. On its scientific board it has the top MDs and nutritionists in the world, including a Nobel Prize winner. To most people I meet (in RL, at least) that's a huge credential. I would like to but I simply can't enter the nutrition debate as it'll take up too much of everyone's time and energy.

PluCaChange, I completely agree with you - jobs which are commission only are not for everyone, I think I may have said that in my post. Yes of course it should be approached with caution, just like any other business venture. You wouldn't open a shop without thinking about it carefully, or anything else. Most people do better in jobs which are salary based because working for yourself in any format requires above-average self-motivation and a whole host of other character traits. But that's fair enough. I have worked in jobs before and I enjoyed various things about that. Now we are completely independent, we enjoy the freedom and the financial rewards that gives us. Both are good, under the right circumstances and for the right people.

It's looking like the only people who will join this thread are the ones against MLM and that's not a problem. I am not necessarily trying to change anyone's opinion (that's not really possible in life - people have whatever opinions work for them, for a multitude of reasons), but equal to the way that you are welcome to express your reservations, I am entitled to present the facts of my own life: MLM, in which we work, is a real and attractive business opportunity from which we have an above-average income, have experienced the infamous free vacation (this year for the first time, in fact - Costa Navarino resort in Greece, we went in May together with 3000 other top distributors from Europe), and have hundreds of very satisfied customers. The people who have kindly joined this debate may not like it, or may not even believe it, but those are the facts of my life, like I have dark hair or two kids.

I really like MN and enjoy reading the AIBUs and I'm glad I've finally had my moment of heated debate with other mums :-) (or dads) and it wasn't even my thread to start with!

Regards & goodwill to you all x

A family member sells this and has tried to get me involve but you need to be good at networking and have lots of rich friends (I have neither).

Some of the products are very good though especially as I get them for free

Aleksandra - are there peer reviewed studies backing up your assertion that meal replacement shakes give better results over the short, medium and long term than other methods of weight loss? Can you link us to them please? I'm assuming you must have immediate access to them or you wouldn't feel confident in promoting the products you sell in the way you do.

Personally I loathe mlm schemes. I wouldn't want to have to rely on marketing any product to my friends in order to pay my bills.

i used to be invited to PartyLite candle parties, and would buy a few bits and pieces as I like the stuff, but as others have said upthread, never understood why there was always a sales pitch for new people to build their own 'business'. How many candle parties can there be within a small area? But that was before I understood MLM.

I also have an old friend, who has moved away, who constantly facebooks her detox sessions with FL products. She even messaged me about getting involved in her team - I eventually had to tell her I enjoyed being a wage slave

If the products made money for the distributors they wouldn't spend so much time trying to convince other people to sell the products, they'd actually spend time focusing on selling the products.

The only logical conclusion is that they don't make money selling the products. Therefore trying to persuade other people to sell the products based presumably on telling them they will make money from it, is misleading at best, and immoral IMO.

If it actually worked, if what they tell people they try to recruit was actually true, they wouldn't be trying to recruit anyone else in the first place.

" It does, however, surprise me that people who do not work in MLM are seen as better informed about it than someone who does. But no problem."

Not better informed necessarily (but maybe), certainly however more neutral. Critics of MLM do not earn anything from criticising it. So there is no reason for them to lie.

minifingers, Aleksandra's company's product is widely sold by means of fraudulent health claims.

seekingalpha.com/article/2210643-the-outrageous-claims-that-fuel-herbalife

I'd reply to her saying, yes I have thought some more about FL and it is definitely not for me but good luck with it. If she asks again after that then I would reply in stronger words - please do not market FL to me again, I have made it very clear that I am not interested. I think MLM distributors are guilting/hounding their friends, family and acquaintances into buying products that they have no need for and to me, this is as bad as putting their hand into someone's pocket and robbing them. I have been on the receiving end of this a number of times directly and at parties. I think it ought to be banned.

Oh, is Herbalife a pyramid selling company, AgaPanthers?
I thought that 'pyramids' were illegal in the UK and I did think Herbalife operated in the UK.

(In fact, when the Aleksandra034 said "We don't work for FL and I don't intend to say who we work for " I was going to post 'Oh well, Herbalife then, if not FL!)

Do they not, then?

I thought I had said my goodbyes but as some posters have
specifically addressed me it would be impolite to not reply.

AgaPanthers, you make a good point, theoretically - an uninvolved person could be neutral. Or not. Depends on a lot of things. It could be claimed that no one can ever be truly neutral about anything - we view everything and everybody through our own "glasses" which comprise of past experiences, conditioning, paradigms etc. And I don't know anything about you, so I can't know where you're coming from and what influences your views on this.

Minifingers, yes there are clinical studies and you can see information about them on Herbalife's corporate website which is easy to find. I am not going to post the links because if you are seriously interested to find out, you will I am sure prefer to do your own research.

On the subject of research, I'd like to address AgaPanthers again: I have tried to follow your link on Seeking Alpha, out of pure curiosity, however it is an investment site (not a nutrition source), run by a single person, and then doesn't actually let you read the article unless you join his mailing list. Alas, I shall remain ignorant as to what the article wants to warn me about. In the meantime, I shall rely on official sources.

Hopefully I have replied to people who have asked me something specifically. I think I will have to go and give attention to other matters in my life now. It's been an interesting experience, discussing something personal in such a public arena where anyone can say anything. I'll repeat, I disagree with what some of the posters are saying but I fully respect your right to say it - enjoy the rest of this discussion :-)

Oooops ... before you go Aleksandra034

You seem very knowledgeable on the subject, so can I ask, do you have any idea if there is a business or religious connection between Amway and Herbalife?

Nothing to do with the thread. Just wondered if you (or anyone here) might know.

When I said yo yo dieting I meant shakes as well as different other diets aleksandra, also you say there have been 100 million customers currently 60 million and hundreds have kept the weight off. Very small percentage I would think.