To wonder why MNHQ still haven't given us our Chalet School topic?

[TheObligatoryNotQuiteSoNewGirl]

Because we probably shouldn't still be hanging out in AIBU, four (or is it five?) threads later.

I've been reading all the lovely transcripts, and although I started Prefects yesterday, I don't want to finish it, because it's the last one! :-(

Yes, Nell, it's weird how Jo is transformed in the space of one book from fun, characterful and highly strung to smug all-knowing wife and mother, isn't it? One wonders if EBD believed at some deep level that married women were a different species from single ones.

Ooh ToniWol, are you hoping it's quads? Camp is one of my near-favourites, I think. Don't forget the cocoa!

Mooncup, I find it really odd. Also I've been reading too much Rosemary Auchmuty lately and am probably too sold on the idea of subversive subtexts too be sensible on the matter atm... (On the whole, who is portrayed as having the fulfilled and enviable life? The lifelong teachers of each generation - the Misses Annersley, Wilson, Ferrars etc - or the beloved Joey, who seems to 'have it all' but is still stuck in a weird "eternal schoolgirl" time warp?)
For me, the issue of deified Adult Jo is not only that she suddenly becomes perfect, it's that her perfection is actually contradictory in many ways: she's supposedly incredibly empathetic, which is why she is so valued for her butting-in to 'fix' problem schoolgirls, why she has to be spared too much emotional drama, and presumably also helps her writing - but she's also still supposed to be (charmingly?) tactless, as eg when she asks Rosalie Dene why she's not married. She presumably continues to be highly strung - hence the dosing, and the bit during the crossing from Guernsey where Frieda and Bill have to basically look after the triplets because she's incapacitated - but this isn't allowed to impair her highly capable, whole-hearted and thorough mothering, writing and being-a-wife.
I think perhaps these things are impossible to resolve. As a modern, adult reader, I am very interested in this unsatisfying 'having it all', and in the transition from a girl who wants nothing to do with marriage and motherhood to a (remarkably young) wife and mother who can't stop protesting how happy she is, but I completely understand why the books don't address this!

I do wonder whether the transition would have been more gently handled if EBD's hand wasn't somewhat forced by the Anschluss, though. I think we would otherwise have seen her conversion to Catholicism and her wedding itself, for example. I also wonder if Con Stewart's engagement and exit would have been a bit less sudden, and there are a few other similar things.

I also think that Joey's reinvention as Best Mother Ever rather usurps Madge of a large part of her role. Madge is very maternal, from very early on - having basically parented Jo, Juliet, Robin etc etc, and her style of leadership is also very maternal. I buy into Madge as this very forgiving 'natural mother' type, and I don't think it conflicts at all with her bravery in setting up the school alone, saving Frau Berlin from the train, climbing trees etc. It feels much more forced in Jo, and all the worse for the suddenness.

Well, that was long.

Would married and unmarried women have had much to do with each other in those days, btw? I'm thinking that unmarried women would have continued working (with each other), or being engaged with eg guiding or folk dance or whatever as per EBD, EJO etc, whilst married women would have shifted into socialising with the wives of their husbands' colleagues and associates, WI etc. Is that true? Maybe they really were two different species...

Good posts, Nell - totally agree about the unconvincingness of Jo's perfect life and character.

I think EBD did have married friends with children; in Gay from China she describes baby Stephen's bedtime routine (bath, final breastfeed etc - of course she doesn't mention breastfeeding by name but it's obvious here and later in the book when Miss Bubb stops Jo going to a hungry screaming Stephen) in quite a lot of detail, and I don't think she could have done that if she hadn't seen friends doing the same thing.

I don't think so Nell. My memory of my childhood in the fifties (obviously later than Jo's marriage), is that we saw a lot of unmarried friends and that they were also involved in WI, Old Tyme Dancing and the all other stuff my mother did. There were obviously a lot of war widows around too. We used to have stiflingly boring tea parties on Sunday afternoons with various women that I had to call aunty.

Could someone send me a link to the downloads? I used to have all the copies but have lost them over the years

Reading the books again, I am very struck by the influence of Little Women. Jo March, our writer heroine, Madge as Meg, Robin as saintly (doomed) Beth.
Not sure about Amy though.

I've just been reading one of the Dimsie books, which I'm guessing are similar era to early Chalet School.

Looking at the character of Dimsie, I wonder if she was what EBD had in mind with ML. There's several references to "only Dimsie would get away with it" or "she doesn't mean it as cheek". But she manages to stay a generally nice middle, and doesn't go into the interfering busy body ML is from quite early on.
I've only got the one book, so maybe she does go the same way though.

Just finished Exile and I think it's a brilliant book and very unflinching. Not only does the Jewish man the girls were trying to save and his wife (and also the priest who tried to shield the girls) die, but Maria Marani's father is also killed and it is made very clear that death is actually preferable to incarceration in a concentration camp. Given that this books was actually written at the outbreak of WWll, when a lot of people were in denial of the concentration camps, that was an incredible piece of writing in a children's book.

Also at the end, when Bruno Van Ahlen returns safely, Frieda makes it very clear that when he goes back to France he might never return. Very brave book really and deeply moving.

Not to say it doesn't have it's dafter moments. Joe as sprightly as a lark after having unexpected tiplets. The shock alone would have floored most mothers, never mind the physical trauma.

Also, while I can understand Joey calling one triplet after Madge, and another after 'Bill' who had played such a heroic role in getting them out of Austria, why would she call the third one after Con Stewart? Would it not have made more sense to call her after Mademoiselle Lepattre?

I think both the naming of the triplets, and the assigning of godmothers, is rather odd. Nell makes sense, and Madge makes sense (plus the added Venables factor makes twice as much sense of this) but Con makes no sense, as namesake or godmother, and Grace Nalder makes no sense as a godmother either. Weren't most of Joey's school friends also Catholics?

Of course, naming one after Mlle Lepattre might draw attention to the fact that her name seems to switch from Elise to Therese...

Hmm, thanks Emily and Mooncup - in that case, I'm out of suggestions! I remembered not long after posting that that she did in fact spend the last years of her life living with a married couple. She does seem to not understand marriage at all, though - the difference between when she is writing about things she obviously understands very well, and not, is striking - eg Tyrol, Guides, aspects of school and lessons, friendships.

We also didn't hear anything at all about Simone's reaction to the triplets even though she was teaching in the school at the time and very close to Joey. She also wasn't around when Frieda made her unexpected appearance at the end. It was as if EBD had forgotten about her.

I agree that Madge came across as a much more naturally maternal figure than Joey, who seemed to be sort of shoe horned into that role. She was believable as a big sister character, but I think EBD should have left her as that 'sisterly, friendly aunt' type figure instead of suddenly changing her into this perfect mother, perfect wife, person who was nothing like the original Joey and just came across as smug and annoying in the end. Also, as I've said loads of times, EBD didn't even create interesting children for Joey - just a long line of dull identikit and rather boring characters who added little or nothing to her later books (apart from Margot to a small degree).

Anyway, I'm going to read Highland Twins next. I really hope it won't be an anti climax after the brilliant 'Exile'.

Just found this thread!

Would somebody mind sending me a link to the transcripts please?!

I think, Nell, that it probably has to do with the fact that her father left them when she was young, so she didn't have much direct experience to call on. Her male characters are very one-dimensional and frequently absent aren't they?
I think the comparison with Jo March is interesting too. Same name, same flying hair, same ink blots, same madcap behaviour. She is a brilliantly written character in Little Women, but (imo) very dull once she marries the good professor and has her boys (and of course she should have married Laurie).
I suspect EBD didn't know much about and wasn't particularly interested in the male characters or the state of marriage. I dislike generational generalisations (drives me mad on Mumsnet sometimes), but I think it is probably true that people didn't discuss marriage and relationships as much. The attitude was more that you put up with it and got on with life.
The school and the girls are the things that she understands and can write about vividly, so that is what she concentrates on.
Changing topic, have to say that reading them again as a French speaker, I am enchanted by the mistakes; especially as spoken by the French characters. Is the German as bad?

Vintage are you skipping Goes To It for a reason? I don't think Matey would be impressed with your sporadic reading, next you'll be admitting you're reading lying down, with no bed jacket.

Emily I find the occasional comment passed on marriage in the books v interesting - the one where Miss Annersley characterises it as darning Reg's socks, the bit where Bill tells Gill Culver that one's choice of husband should be about something more than a desirable surname, the couple of times where characters relay second-hand that Madge is sorry to step back from the school but far happier to have Jem and David - I wonder to what extent this is what EBD really thought, to what extent it is what she felt obliged to 'teach' young readers, or whether really these are just off-hand remarks with no meaning at all. (I don't wonder this about eg Gisela commenting to Jo that she hopes she will one day have the experience of marriage and motherhood - that feels so completely in character and part of natural conversation that I don't think it can be a representation of anything more.)
I suspect she could see no alternative to Jo marrying. I wonder if there was any alternative to marriage making her, like Jo March, somewhat boring? I can't think of any others to compare against.

Related, I also wonder what EBD thought of her male characters - though I agree they're not one of the things she spent much time thinking about. I wonder a bit more what she thought of her non-husband men - eg Mr Denny or Kester Bellever. They're not especially well-developed, but they're also clearly not from the same mould as all the doctor-husbands.

I would guess that she had a bit of an idealised view of marriage and motherhood, but making the portrayal of it realistic would have been too lengthy and complicated and possibly beyond her competence as a writer (clearly not impossible because Jane Austen managed it).
I do remember my headmistress talking about our most important destiny being as wives and mothers (she and many other staff had 'lost' fiancés in the war), so that was still perceived wisdom for nice gels in small independent schools in the fifties.
Actually, if school reunions are anything to go by, we have all worked pretty much full-time as well as having children.

Thank you for the links :-)

I think Joey could have been much more interesting as a maiden aunt who does perhaps a small amount of coaching of new girls language skills, maybe some minority languages (any except Welsh!) or other "bringing up to scratch" subjects (except art or maths!)
She could have stayed a bit harum scarum and disorganised as she was as a child, and the adult side of her could have become the problem child's confident, learning about their issues when they came to tell her, and helping from her mistresses room which would be a bit out of the way so she could also have quiet while she wrote.

That would aslo have allowed other children to come forward rather than having the triplets pushed all the time. As a mistress she would have been fine to suggest that children help another out etc. She could have done all her "helping" in a more natural environment.
Also to me her "I'm still a schoolgirl at heart" is very cringy when she's a mum of children at the school, but an eccentric school teacher that everyone loves is quite true to life.

As EBD was obviously determined she would marry and have children, she could have become a rather disorganised mother with a motherly housekeeper rather than a devoted Anna. Housekeeper would treat her in a motherly way, shake her head over her silliness, and put a break on her more ridiculous games-a bit like Robin does once or twice.

She'd be one of those mothers that suggests everyone meets at the park with about 10 minutes notice and then produces water pistols out of her bag. The children have a great time, mothers sit gossiping. And then she would arrive home having forgotten to get any food to eat, so they'd end up with bacon butties cooked on the BBQ because it's fun!
Totally impulsive, and children think she's great fun, but frustrating to get doing anything organised.

I think every so often EBD puts in a glimour of male character that I really like. In Return I love Herr Laubach's (sp?) attitude when he interrupts their hobbies club and he explains why he wants the jigsaws for his wife, she's again mentioned in Exile, it's not much but has a real tenderness about it from an otherwise gruff character. I also like the occasional insights into Vater Bar (can't remember his real name at the moment) life, when it mentions he invites some of the children home at a moments notice and his housekeeper has to provide tea for them. I also like him in other books such as New Chalet when he helps out (by catching the Balbini twins and bringing them back). Each time it's only small snippits but I like them and it gives me a lovely impression in my head of these characters who are otherwise not padded out.

There seem to be a couple of times when she's thinking of ditching Joey, When she goes off to Canada, and when she has "dislodged" an organ in Richenda (?).

Can I nominate Professor Richardson for most irresponsible parent of an admittedly crowded field?

Major Carrick gets a dishonorable mention.

I am definitely not hoping for multiples and the scans show there's only one in there (unless they're doing synchronised wriggling!)

WRT Joey - she also has the same initials as Jo March before and after marriage (although in the CS it's JMB to JMM, and the other way around in LW).

Yes why I really like those glimmers of Herr Laubach and Herr Anserl, too. And Mr Denny, who I mostly think of as being gay and wonder if he was based on some RL acquaintance.
I read a mostly Nell/Hilda fic recently, quite long and v recommendable, which had a nice starring role for Herr Anserl, Vater Bar. I will try to remember to link it later in case anyone is interested.

DeWee, interesting alternatives. I wonder whether an unmarried Jo might have been perceived as a promotion of spinsterhood? I don't know enough of the social history to comment, really. I wonder what the second half of the series would have looked like if Jo's role had even just been shifted away from centre stage, in any married or unmarried form... I can see why she would have been reluctant to write her out altogether.

If the Bettanys were less bloody prolific in their childbearing it would have also helped - at a number of points there must have been 10 or more of them in the school, which rather limits the potential to write any interesting and completely new characters. The only really convincing and interesting one is Bride, I think.

I think Jo is the woman/mother/person that EDB would have liked to have been. Jo is faultless as even her faults are perceived as charming.

stokey yes there are some dreadful fathers in the books but again their faults are often skated over as them
Either coping as single fathers ( prof Fry) or geniuses ( prof Richardson).

I always like the adherence to the men in her books as the ultimate all knowing beings just because they are men. My real pet hate is the total ignoring of Daisy Venables being a celebrated paediatrician after her marriage and it's Laurie who is asked to see to Charies after his surgery and bring him home!! He's a TB medical consultant!!!

I actually can never make out if EBD is a real and total innocent who hasn't a clue about sex/lesbianism/marriage/ etc or she really is quite sophisticated enough to hint about them in her books.

Bless her she knew Jack shit about illness. Who knew a good old sing sing could cure pneumonia.

Eurgh yes I hate the immediate demotion of Daisy. I don't even understand that bit when Jo tells Daisy how relieved she is that Laurie will be there: is it supposed to acknowledge that Daisy's knowledge is now out of date or has been erased from her brain? Surely EBD hasn't actually forgotten that Daisy was the paediatrician until five minutes earlier?

Conversely, I like that for the most part the mistresses in the first chapter of Exile actually give Jem something of a hard time and ask awkward questions, rather than meekly accepting that he is right and they must move up to the Sonnalpe under the protection of seven British doctors (against the third reich, seven British doctors!).

I am frustrated by how many Dramatic Rescues ultimately necessitate the involvement of the menfolk. I don't exactly want a complete absence of men, and for example Jack and Gottfried in Exile are nothing short of brilliantly helpful and that seems fine, it's just the inevitable appearance of Random Man As Saviour Of Last Resort that grates.

I can't quite believe that EBD knowingly included lesbian relationships in children's books, but I also really don't believe she was entirely naïve in this regard. I have wondered before whether Nell Wilson and Con Stewart, in particular, were an accidental portrayal of a pair she knew IRL and hadn't twigged the extent of their relationship - I still think this has some credibility, more so than most alternatives IMO. But I also wonder if some of it comes down to her semi-unconscious style of writing - I think sometimes her characters don't behave exactly as she'd intended: I think perhaps there is accidental lesbianism because she did know something about it and wasn't paying enough attention to keep it out.
I also think it's interesting that she mostly avoids the whole 'crush' thing, apart from Tom's adoration of Daisy and Rosalie's of Tom - I think it's interesting that she chose to tie these to her most tomboyish character - through modern eyes, it's hard not to read Tom as trans - and I wonder what that meant, consciously or otherwise.

Something which perplexed me in Oberland and I'm fairly sure crops up elsewhere in the series, too, was a surprisingly detailed comment on the spacing of children (in this instance, Joey's, but I'm sure I've read similar comment elsewhere on Madge's), as though it was deliberate and well-planned. Is she actually saying that Joey and/or Jack were consciously practising some method of family planning, or is this just random ramblings in the same vein as Joey expressing a wish for twins/singletons/quads of precise genders (and probably hair colour)?

And, indeed, just in case we get too much to thinking that she is actually being very serious and sophisticated about all of it, suddenly a quick burst of the Red Sarafan saves a life and all these serious thoughts fall back to earth with a bump.

Increasingly though, I'm not sure whether she really did want to 'be' Joey. I think she's besotted with her in a way I can't quite comprehend and which completely clouds her judgment and means Bad Things can never happen to Jo, sure, but I think I see Miss Annersley as the person she wished she could have been.