To ask you what you think about the Christian bakery?

[Summerbreezer]

Can't see a thread about this on here - apologies if there is one already.

For those who haven't read the story, a bakery in Northern Ireland has refused to bake a cake for a gay person. They wanted Bert and Ernie on the top of the cake with the words "Queerspace".

BBC Link here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

I am completely torn here. On one hand, I am a big believer in "trendy" rights not trumping "untrendy" ones. The rights of Christians are just as important as the rights of gay people.

I am also a big believer in the freedom of private business to contract with whoever they wished.

But then, if this bakery had refused to serve a black person on the grounds of race, I would feel deeply uncomfortable about it.

So Mumsnet, tell me what you think!

When you run a business open to the public you lose your right to discriminate against the people who wish to be your customers. I personally think these are the worst type of Christians. I'm boycotting them and think they are a disgusting bunch of people who should be ashamed of their behaviour.

Seven what sort of views are you talking about? I agree that if you see a homophobic post you should report it . but I don't see any.
The vast majority of people on this thread seem to be in favour of gay marriage.
just to be clear, is it your opinion that the baker should have been compelled by law to bake and decorate the cake?
If not, I can't see what you disagree with.

Your stance is clear

I haven't made my stance clear at all. FWIW, I would replace it with a more nuanced section.

But you don't really care what anyone else thinks because you aren't willing to consider a view that is different to your own.

I will apologise for the anger, sarcasm and general unpleasantness in my last post - I am pretty furious.

From my perspective, I could say that I had no idea that people were so unbothered by the idea of the State controlling what you must do in private. Which is kind of ironic as it's pretty much the basic argument against homophobes - 'why do you care so much'?

A baker must not be allowed to refuse service to gay people. A baker must not be compelled to create cakes promoting a political/social message that s/he disagrees with unless they live in China I'll leave it there.

Yes I have, thanks.

Im not on a device where I can c and p but suffice to say I disagree with your wish to repeal that section. It offers a range of protections which I would like to see retained. The freedom from harassment and victimisation parts. Well the whole thing really because I don't think you should be allowed to do the things it protects against.

YY Maid.

The freedom from harassment and victimisation parts.

I wouldn't worry too much about that - gay people are rightly already protected under the criminal law from those things.

They would also be retained in my version of the legislation.

Thing is, I don't consider a refusal to bake a cake "harassment and victimisation".

I believe it is a fundamental right of the individual to be able to do business with whomever their choose to do business with for any reasons they see fit

You'd have no problems then with "no Blacks , no dogs, no Irish signs" in the windows of boarding houses? Was common in London as late as the 60s.

A baker must not be allowed to refuse service to gay people. A baker must not be compelled to create cakes promoting a political/social message that s/he disagrees with unless they live in China I'll leave it there.

Agree totally.

Hold on. You have said that the act is draconian and you would repeal section 29.

Now you seem to be back pedaling?

No, my view remains the same.

But you are not willing to listen to what I have to say.

I'm still interested to know what they have done when they've been asked to bake a civil partnership cake. They must have been asked at some point in the last 20 years.

exactly isn't harassment getting verbal abuse or physical violence.

It's not a person making a stand against gay marriage. It's a business refusing to make a bespoke item for a political campaign. Is it really not obvious how those two examples are completely different?

To me it's this simple:

As an artist I provide a service.
The bakery provides a service.

A client asks me to create a poster campaign to support their petition to change the law regarding a woman's right to own property .
A client asked the bakery to create a cake to support their petition to change the law regarding same sex marriage .

I can refuse to provide that service.
The bakery can refuse to provide that service.

It might seem fine and dandy to punish the bakery for not supporting a cause that we all support but that isn't the principle at stake. What happens when we are providing the service and the cause goes against our beliefs?

Without going into depth, as an atheist I think they're in the wrong, from my moral perspective

However, as a small business owner, I think it's entirely up to them which clients they do and do not take on. Their god tells them that gay people are naughty and deserve no cake or whatever... fine. There's always another bakery at the end of the day and it's not like they were refused entry somewhere or something similar, they simply came across a bakery that couldn't fulfill their needs.

I run a printing shop and have refused to do merch wear for BNP members, as I don't want my business name attached to their clothes or whatever. Admittedly I took the wimp's route out and simply stated 'we don't do anything political' rather than 'I wouldn't spend all day printing BNP logos on to polo shirts if you paid me solid gold bars'. But at the end of the day, it's my business, my work, and if I want to refuse custom for BNP/EDL/FuckWitLeagueParty I shall. I'm self employed, not staff, I don't have to do as you command.

I can't enjoy that right, yet take it away from somebody else, just because I think he's wrong. I can however, declare him an arse and merrily slash 20% off any same-sex wedding/stag/hen printing requirements. Because it's my business and I can positively discriminate all I like :P

Actually, let's be honest they refused the job not the clients. Had a straight person gone in and ordered the same theme of cake they'd probably be told 'no'.

Exactly Green. The customer could buy any cake, sausage roll or sundry baked goods he wanted, he could eat them on the premises, buy some tray bakes for his campaign etc. etc. etc. What he couldn't do was ask them to create a cake which said "SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE" on it. Because they don't support gay marriage and it was being used as part of a high profile political campaign to promote same. Ashers' position would have been the same had I placed the order, as a straight (albeit v liberal) woman. By completing the cake they would have been giving their complicit support to the campaign.

Also fairly sure the bakery employ at least one "out" gay employee, so wouldn't be too quick to write them off completely. Just wish they had let a PR firm look at the blasted statement before they started stroking their bible in public. They could've got their point across whilst still appearing less old testament about the whole thing.

It is a person/business making a stand against gay marriage
"I feel if we don't take a stand on this here case, then how can we stand up against it, further down the line?"

A political campaign? It's only political because rights need fighting for. Equal rights should be a given
Hopefully years down the line this won't be political because all the rights will have been given

I hope so too, but in the meantime I hope that all people and groups who take part in the debate have their concerns listened to and their views respected.

The only thing that making businesses enter into contracts which they fundamentally disagree with will achieve is breeding bitterness and resentment. Tolerance and acceptance is not won by force or by strong arming naysayers.

GreebOgg political views are not protected. All businesses have the right to refuse service to the BNP or any other political party.

This is muddied as one might argue it is a political campaign but it's a campaign directed at a protected characteristic.

Distinguishing between refusing the job and refusing to serve the person is splitting hairs. Many goods and services don't have 2 part elements. For example a painter refusing to paint your house because you're gay is refusing the job.

It is a muddy issue, and there is some splitting hairs, but I think there needs to be as each case is different. In this case we're dealing with a bakery who did not want to make a cake supporting gay marriage. In the context I'd call that a political issue, maybe a religious one. They should have the right to refuse that particular job imo. They of course, should not have the right to refuse a perfectly 'standard' job (say a couple of sausage rolls, whatever) because the the clients are gay.

One is open discrimination against a certain group. The other is a refusal to take on a job that is specifically contradictory to their own beliefs.

The painter example is interesting, but would be more accurate if he was, say, muslim and was asked to paint a picture of Mohammed chowing down on a bacon roll. Doesn't matter who asks for that particular mural, it ain't happening with a muslim painter.

I'd like to make it clear that while I'm seemingly 'pro-bakery' I'm also very deeply pro-equality. And of course that means the same civil rights for everyone, marriage licenses included. And refusals to make cakes you don't like included, sadly!

It's only political because rights need fighting for. Equal rights should be a given
Hopefully years down the line this won't be political because all the rights will have been given

I'm much looking forward to the day when people roll their eyes and snort 'they had to make all that fuss just so same sex couples could marry? OMG you were all so backwards then.'

I looked at the story to see if there was another side to it and there wasn't. They made their position very clear.

To those making excuses for the company I have to ask if you are ok with someone refusing to make a cake for a BarMitzvah. After all if people don't approve of Jews they shouldn't be forced to serve them should they, or let them on their bus or in their hotel.

We went through this stage when many of you hated Black people, Gypsies, The Irish and so on. In every generation there are bigots who treat people as less human and other bigots who while not brave enough to actually do anything themselves will say "well you can't blame them. I wouldn't want their kind in my shop. Why can't they just go somewhere else".

Luckily we've made most of what you want to do illegal here.

Back actually you don't have to ask that question at all because it's pretty clear if your rtft that no-one is saying anything of the sort. There is not a single poster that has said they don't support gay marriage.

'We went through this stage when many of you' nice bit of generalising, categorising and, dare I say it, bigotry there. Of the minorities you mention I tick two boxes. I haven't seen any bigotry on this thread except possibly from the few posters trying to close down debate by misrepresenting the entirely coherent arguments presented.

As for your spurious hypotheses: is a BarMitzvah a political campaign? Has anyone said on this thread that they would not serve someone? Please do reference the posts.

Also, it would be very helpful if you could explain why Greenbo should be forced to provide a service to the BNP?

Or are you suggesting that Greenbo has the right to opt out because you agree with them about the BNP but people/businesses you don't agree with should be forced to act in a certain way? And, can you explain how legislation could differentiate between such a two tier system?

TIA

Aplace actually several posters have made the sweeping statement it should be up to a business to decide who they do business with. I'm waiting for any of them to confirm or deny they agree that following that logic it'll b be just fine to have a sign saying "No Blacks, No Irish" Used to be common enough.

No one has said anyone should be forced to work for the BNP or any other political party.

Political views are not a protected characteristic so please do not use specious arguments to derail the debate.

However it is not up to a business to decide who they will work for if that decision is made solely because the customer falls into a protected characteristic.