To ask you what you think about the Christian bakery?

[Summerbreezer]

Can't see a thread about this on here - apologies if there is one already.

For those who haven't read the story, a bakery in Northern Ireland has refused to bake a cake for a gay person. They wanted Bert and Ernie on the top of the cake with the words "Queerspace".

BBC Link here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

I am completely torn here. On one hand, I am a big believer in "trendy" rights not trumping "untrendy" ones. The rights of Christians are just as important as the rights of gay people.

I am also a big believer in the freedom of private business to contract with whoever they wished.

But then, if this bakery had refused to serve a black person on the grounds of race, I would feel deeply uncomfortable about it.

So Mumsnet, tell me what you think!

[Pregnantberry]

I don't think anyone's comparing the two, just saying that in this case, their rights 'clash'.

You always have a choice about believing in a god.

I know what you're getting at, but do you really? If someone demanded that you convert by pain of death, would you be able to just choose to do that and truly start believing in god? I wouldn't be able to just choose to believe in God if I wanted to any more than I would expect a religious person to be able to choose to stop. It would require a complete overhaul of the way people think and view the world, and most people have been raised into their religion since they were babies.

[Maria33]

No diddlediddle because the latter promotes discrimination. I'm an Atheist but would have no problem making a cake with a pro-xtian message. I wouldn't make a cake that said something rude about Christians...

[SevenZarkSeven]

Well he thought long and hard about it enough to equate homosexual relationships with porn and obscenity.

So not that long and hard at all.

[hiddenhome]

I think the people who ordered the cake have done it to set a trap for the bakery

Yet more litigation.

[LynetteScavo]

AlistairSim - I disagree about choosing to believe in a god, but anyway. It's like loving or liking someone or something. It's a feeling more than a conscious decision. You either do, or you don't. It's not something you chose.

If you don't want to decorate a cake, because you don't agree with gay relationships, then come out and say so (and be prepared for a court case), but don't pretend it's because of Christian beliefs.

[Maria33]

People can be malicious and petty even if they think long and hard. I think they were intolerant and unchristian. Judge not lest ye be judged.. Let him without sin cast the first stone anyone?

[BravePotato]

I think the bakery was set up for the fall.

I think the gay people involved wanted to make a public point.

They have an axe to grind with Christians.

But I accept I may be completely wrong.

[Summerbreezer]

But there are two issues here. The issue about whether or not you agree with their decision is different to whether they have the right to make it in the first place.

Many will disagree with their choice, many will think it is unchristian, or based on prejudice rather than Christian belief or whatever.

But the real question is whether they have a right to that choice, whatever their reasons are.

[BravePotato]

I would also like to see what a Muslim cake baker would do.

[SevenZarkSeven]

OTOH

Maybe the guy is a big slash fan and he's never had any truck with the Bert/Ernie pairing?

Worth consideration, I think

[BookABooSue]

Isn't Queerspace a campaigning organisation? Businesses make decisions all the time about whether to support political parties, get involved in campaigns, etc. That can only ever be a decision for the business.

Bakers accept certain commissions and turn down others. I know I've called bakers to be told they couldn't make a certain design. It's not that big a deal. I really hate manufactured outrage stories.

However it's definitely been great publicity for Queer Space.

[FreeWee]

They're dicks. Yes they can refuse to serve whoever they like but not because of a protected characteristic. Because they don't like their haircut or their shoes but not because of their sexuality. That's why we have the equality act. Turn it on its head. Refusing to serve a pregnant woman a cake because you think too much sugar is bad for the baby. Tough luck, refusing to serve her because she's pregnant is illegal as it's a protected characteristic.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I heard this on the news today and despaired (my manor).

However what people have said on this thread has really struck a chord with me. I'm not sure I would agree to make something that promoted racism or Anti-Choice views, as they are completely contrary to my beliefs.

[lampygirl]

If they had asked for a cake with a picture of a flower and happy birthday on it, he would have served them. They weren't refused based on their sexuality, but the message on the cake. If I went in and asked for a cake promoting gay marriage as a straight person and was refused, would that be discrimination??

[MaidOfStars]

I think I agree with the bakery's right to refuse the commission. I would not support their right to refuse regular service to a gay person, and quite rightly, that would be in contravention of equality/discrimination laws.

As an atheist feminist, I would like to think I reserve an equivalent right to refuse to engage in, say, the promotion of stoning women via the medium of cake, although I wouldn't refuse to serve Muslim customers (extreme example for illustration purposes only).

Doesn't stop me thinking the bakers in question are unlikely to be my kind of people though, and I'd give the business a wide berth (just as I tend to give anyone supporting discrimination or inequality a wide berth).

[Summerbreezer]

Also - The Equality Commission have suggested that the customer is "compensated" or legal action will be taken.

Does the customer deserve to be given money for what has happened?

[diddlediddledumpling]

Maria33 I assume you wouldn't make a cake that said something rude about Christians because you would disagree with the sentiment.
which would be the same as what these bakers did.

I disagree completely with the bakers' belief in this respect, but they're entitled to hold the belief.

[Maria33]

If they sell cakes promoting marriage but not gay marriage it's discrimination. If they refuse to sell cakes promoting marriage, they're going to lose a lit if money as bakers. I am that there is any debate to be had. What if they refused a cake promoting interracial marriage, marriage between two divorced people, marriage between someone wearing polyester and someone wearing cotton (obscure biblical reference)?

I actually find this thread really depressing. I assumed they were a couple of isolated cranks in a small community. Turns out lots of people think they might have a fair point

[Summerbreezer]

I assumed they were a couple of isolated cranks in a small community. Turns out lots of people think they might have a fair point

I think you've misunderstood.

[Maria33]

I am entitled to hold whatever beliefs I want but I am not always entitled to act on them, especially if they discriminate against an oppressed minority.

[Maria33]

summerbreeze I hope so :)

Got to go - story time!

[diddlediddledumpling]

well Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK not to have passed a law allowing gay marriage, so unfortunately more than just a few cranks hold that opinion.

I do support gay marriage and hope our laws change soon. but that's a different argument to what's going on here.