To ask you what you think about the Christian bakery?

[Summerbreezer]

Can't see a thread about this on here - apologies if there is one already.

For those who haven't read the story, a bakery in Northern Ireland has refused to bake a cake for a gay person. They wanted Bert and Ernie on the top of the cake with the words "Queerspace".

BBC Link here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

I am completely torn here. On one hand, I am a big believer in "trendy" rights not trumping "untrendy" ones. The rights of Christians are just as important as the rights of gay people.

I am also a big believer in the freedom of private business to contract with whoever they wished.

But then, if this bakery had refused to serve a black person on the grounds of race, I would feel deeply uncomfortable about it.

So Mumsnet, tell me what you think!

[SuburbanRhonda]

"Come on!" they'll say. "No sane and decent person would refuse to sell a cake for such a daft reason. You're having me on".

Until you say, "No, but it was a Christian bakery", then they'll say, "Oh, right of course, I remember them. Bloody bonkers, weren't they?"

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Freedom of choice! exactly!

That's why it's okay to refuse to take a Jew to a synagogue in your taxi cab if you are an atheist. You can't be required to do anything to promote Judaism and helping them get there would.

On the same basis if you're a postman you can refuse to post letters to the local Mosque.

You don't have to deliver heating oil to a Christian church either.

I wish the haters could see themselves from the outside and understand what they look and sound like.

If they had their way we wouldn't have a society at all. I do think one day people will say "surely they didn't really act like that in the olden days?" and like one poster further back they may deny it ever happened.

"Come on!" they'll say. "No sane and decent person would refuse to sell a cake for such a daft reason. You're having me on".

[OnlyLovers]

Wayward, I've been trying to be quite measured in my posting but actually, that is EXACTLY how I feel about it when we get right down to it.

Thanks for articulating it for me.

[VivaLeBeaver]

I thought Bert and Ernie were good friends.

[bobbywash]

I thought that Gay Marriage legislation doesn't apply to Northern Ireland, they they don't have to ice a cake with a slogan endorsing something that doesn't exist in their country IYSWIM.

Freedom of choice really, they can choose not to do it, people can choose not to order things from them.

[diddlediddledumpling]

that link also shows the cake, and what an impressive cake it is. to those who suggested the customer could have done it themselves with an icing bag: I think not...

[diddlediddledumpling]

[[http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/letters/cakegate-arent-sausage-rolls-a-contradiction-of-what-the-bible-teaches-30420950.html
on a lighter note]]

[WaywardOn3]

It's disgusting, just like that bloody Christian couple who refused to give a room in their hotel to a gay couple. As it's in Ireland I doubt they'll loose all that much business but I hope they do nasty people with that sort of view shouldn't be running a customer facing business

[aurynne]

However, I must admit I am still undecided about drag cakes.

[TiggyD]

I also support trans-cakes. Jaffa cakes might be biscuits to some, but if they want to call themselves cakes and live their lives as cakes then I'll jolly well call them cakes.

Fairy cakes are well gay. Same as battenbugs.

[daisychain01]

Are fairy cakes gay?

[aurynne]

You are being highly inappropriate and disempowering by trying to determine the cake's sexuality. Surely it's the cake who should choose whether or not to disclose this private information about its sexuality.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Can't they marry Tiggy?. I thought/think that all cakes, Bakewell tarts, Victoria Sponges, Carrot and everything in-between, should be granted equal status under the law. Surely the fundamental principle here is that They are all cake.

I am if that is not the case.

Because I love cake.*

*Even Jaffa Cakes & Eccles Cakes. Which I know is a bit controversial.

[APlaceOnTheCouch]

Tiggy

[TiggyD]

If a cake is gay, it's gay. It's just how it's been baked. I do think that gay cakes should be able to marry.

[CheerfulYank]

I don't agree with the baker but I support his right to not make the cake.

There was a big to-do about a...I believe it was Wal-Mart, here in the US, that refused to write a little boy's name on a cake because his name was Adolph Hitler Campbell.

Someone may have already mentioned that; I did not RTFT in its entirety. :o

[treaclesoda]

It was ordered for an event hosted by the then mayor, although I'm not sure if that counts as him having ordered it as such. He is indeed gay, but the cake itself has, as far as I'm aware, no sexual orientation of its own

[SuburbanRhonda]

treacle, I still think it's no coincidence they chose to offend supporters of gay marriage.

As far as I member from school, Jesus hung out with all sorts of wrong' 'uns and reprobates. I doubt he gave a shiny shit about offending people who didn't agree with him.

(And I say that as an atheist)

[SuburbanRhonda]

Maybe, love, but according to some on here, the cake itself was gay

[treaclesoda]

But whether they weighed things up in financial terms (and none of us know what they discussed within their family) or not, they still couldn't win. There still would have been fallout for them.

[LoveBeingInTheSun]

The cake was not ordered a gay person for a gay whatever, it was ordered by the mayor (who as far as I a awae is not gay)

[SuburbanRhonda]

treacle, I didn't get the impression they were weighing anything up. They quoted the bible to support their decision, so I can't imagine they would have even considered making the cake and possible offending Christians. Much easier, and lazier, to stick to offending supporters of gay marriage.

[TheCraicDealer]

YY treacle. And that's before you even start thinking about, "what will people at church say?!", nevermind the impact on trade.

For what it's worth I don't think this will hurt them too badly, so long as they put the bible bashing to bed. Anyone I've discussed it with in RL (a good few!) are sympathetic towards their position, despite being pro-gay marriage themselves. It's very easy to shout 'discrimination!', but I like the fact I retain the right to not enter into contracts with groups who don't share the same political or moral views as me. The pro-life crowd for one- I wouldn't want to see them use legislation like this to hide behind, because they promote themselves as a religious group.

[treaclesoda]

I used the word 'endorse' earlier and I accept that maybe it was the wrong choice of word. But I stand by the point I was making which was that Ashers couldn't win here. I guarantee that if word got round NI that they had accepted money to put a pro gay marriage slogan on a cake (and it would get round, it's a small place) we'd have been deafened by the cries of 'hypocrites' and a lot of Christians woukd be boycotting them. And if I were an NI business weighing up the possible damage to my business of being boycotted by Christians (which would almost certainly happen) or boycotted by those who are very committed to seeing gay marriage legalised, well I'd take my chances on getting boycotted by the latter because unlike in the rest of the UK, the churches here hold a lot of influence.

[Beastofburden]

I guess it depends also on whether we think a business is a purely private thing, where you can do what you want to, or whether once you are in business, you have certain duties. When it comes to minimum wage, health and safety, etc, we long ago stopped saying that a small business could please itself.

There are so many Muslim shop keepers who sell alcohol because if they don't, the shop goes bust. I don't think they are being disloyal to Islam, I actually admire them for putting their customer above their own beliefs.

Interesting what a PP said about divorce and NI. That may be a NI thing, where I live even the homophobes seem pretty relAxed about divorce.