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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask you what you think about the Christian bakery?

402 replies

Summerbreezer · 08/07/2014 18:49

Can't see a thread about this on here - apologies if there is one already.

For those who haven't read the story, a bakery in Northern Ireland has refused to bake a cake for a gay person. They wanted Bert and Ernie on the top of the cake with the words "Queerspace".

BBC Link here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

I am completely torn here. On one hand, I am a big believer in "trendy" rights not trumping "untrendy" ones. The rights of Christians are just as important as the rights of gay people.

I am also a big believer in the freedom of private business to contract with whoever they wished.

But then, if this bakery had refused to serve a black person on the grounds of race, I would feel deeply uncomfortable about it.

So Mumsnet, tell me what you think!

OP posts:
PhaedraIsMyName · 09/07/2014 18:13

I'm also a bit surprised at those of you who are saying it's only a baker, not an essential service, they could go elsewhere.

What if it's by far and away the nicest bakery for miles? Gay people aren't to have the right to order a cake from the best and as long as there is an alternative, no matter the quality, that's fine?

alemci · 09/07/2014 18:15

Suburban Rhonda I am entitled to my opinion, just because it isn't the same as yours doesn't make it any less valid.

PosyFossilsShoes · 09/07/2014 18:30

You're entitled to your opinion, alemci, Rhonda & I are entitled to laugh at it.

PhaedraIsMyName · 09/07/2014 18:33

Maid it has been said ad nauseum a business can refuse to deal with the BNP. The business needs to be sure of course that being a member of the BNP is the reason and they are not hanging their hat on that to conceal a prejudice against a protected characteristic. The BNP apparently has gay members.

You've lost me completely in the rest of your comment about what your interpretation of what I said. However I think you are referring back to the post I made in relation to PA or friends of a gay couple trying to organise a wedding cake. If that were refused the discrimination is indirect but it impacts on the gay couple. Indirect discrimination has already been explained.

The reason for the refusal is directly linked to a protected characteristic; the couple are
gay. In the UK gay people can marry , the baker is refusing a service he would happily provide to a straight couple for no reason other than they are gay. He is discriminating.

In NI gay people can't get married but he is still refusing a service which he would provide to a non-gay person.

alemci · 09/07/2014 18:33

I think it was more than that and the implication was I was childish for having it. It was in response to Manatee about the gay rights being put above christian principles.

OnlyLovers · 09/07/2014 18:36

alemci, 'being gay is unusual and most people aren't so why are they more important than anyone else.' is not a particularly grown-up or sophisticated thing to say.

alemci · 09/07/2014 18:38

Fair enough :) but sometimes it is hard to convey meaning when you are not talking face to face with someone.

I don't think this baker should be prosecuted end of.

MaidOfStars · 09/07/2014 18:45

Phaedra My question to you was in response to:

And if the reason for changing your mind [refusing a commission] is related to a protected characteristic your photographer would have a breach of equality law

...which seems to suggest that a political position becomes protected if it is simply 'related' to a person with a protected characteristic.

I personally don't think that a political position merely 'related' to a protected characteristic should be considered as necessarily linked to the protected characteristic and therefore attract the same legislation re: equality. Positions should be considered on their own merits (or lack of).

Ones position on gay/straight marriage is not a protected characteristic. Ones sexuality is.

OnlyLovers · 09/07/2014 18:47

alemci, no, I think your meaning comes across loud and clear.

PosyFossilsShoes · 09/07/2014 18:47

I don't think this baker should be prosecuted end of.

Crikey, nobody is suggesting prosecuting him!! There is no suggestion he's committed a crime, the most that could happen is that there is a civil case in the county court.

MaidOfStars · 09/07/2014 18:48

the baker is refusing a service he would happily provide to a straight couple
It is nowhere clear that this is the case.

In fact, I'd bet a similar refusal would be given to a straight person in a straight relationship hosting a straight party in support of gay marriage.

daisychain01 · 09/07/2014 18:54

I can't support people ramming their open gay-ness down the throats of people who might feel uncomfortable - it sounds a goady thing to do IMO, Queerspace has a nastiness about it somehow.

FFS why didn't they get the cake supplied by the bakery and get a piping bag out and write Queerspace in pink icing themselves, instead of getting so hot under the tutu about it? Job's a good'un, it would have taken all of half an hour.

But I expect it's all about "the principle" and proving a point ... so tedious.

alemci · 09/07/2014 18:59

I said the same about the piping upthread Daisychain

LynetteScavo · 09/07/2014 19:00

I love how the cake involved is now known as "the gay cake". Grin

LynetteScavo · 09/07/2014 19:02

I hope it was rainbow coloured on the inside

diddlediddledumpling · 09/07/2014 19:03

Phaedra now I am sure you're being obtuse. There was no couple....

daisychain01 · 09/07/2014 19:03

oops sorry, I xposted alemci - I ran out of steam after reading quite a few pages.

I do think that there are times in life that people just go out of their way to prod, poke and then get surprised and upset. Sort of making a point for the sake of it.

OnlyLovers · 09/07/2014 19:07

I can't support people ramming their open gay-ness down the throats of people who might feel uncomfortable

daisy, how were they ramming their 'open gayness' down anyone's throat, more than, say, someone who asked for a 21st birthday cake was ramming their open 21st-ness down people's throats?

And if you object to 'open gayness', may I ask what you think the desirable opposite is and what people who are gay ought to do instead?

Oh, and how were they going 'out of their way'? Didn't they just want a cake made? Is the person who wants a 21st birthday cake going equally out of their way?

ObfusKate · 09/07/2014 19:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

handcream · 09/07/2014 19:20

Was this baker targeted because of their beliefs so that the gay rights could claim they were discrimated against?

OnlyLovers · 09/07/2014 19:21

handcream, 'targeted'? They just wanted a fucking cake. Have a word with yourself.

PosyFossilsShoes · 09/07/2014 19:22

Daisychain, what do you find "nasty" about Queerspace? They're a collective with a fair trade coffee lounge, they couldn't be fluffier.

www.queerspace.org.uk/about-us/

Or is it just the name you don't like?

PosyFossilsShoes · 09/07/2014 19:22

No handcream see what I wrote upthread about not needing to seek out discrimination.

OnlyLovers · 09/07/2014 19:24

And who on earth are 'the gay rights'?

daisychain01 · 09/07/2014 19:25

I have given my opinion.

Gayness is widely accepted, but it is different to 21st birthday-ness. Presumably you are aware there are people around who don't agree with gayness? They have a right to their opinion and if they feel uncomfortable about decorating a cake with Queer on it, then there is the option to find a different baker isn't there? I'm amazed that, as this is in NI, they didn't realise they would be running a risk by asking.

As I suggested in my PP, the alternative is to ask the bakery to do the cake and then ice it themselves, then they can put anything they want on it.

But maybe, just maybe, that was far too reasonable and they may have wanted to court controversy....