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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask you what you think about the Christian bakery?

402 replies

Summerbreezer · 08/07/2014 18:49

Can't see a thread about this on here - apologies if there is one already.

For those who haven't read the story, a bakery in Northern Ireland has refused to bake a cake for a gay person. They wanted Bert and Ernie on the top of the cake with the words "Queerspace".

BBC Link here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

I am completely torn here. On one hand, I am a big believer in "trendy" rights not trumping "untrendy" ones. The rights of Christians are just as important as the rights of gay people.

I am also a big believer in the freedom of private business to contract with whoever they wished.

But then, if this bakery had refused to serve a black person on the grounds of race, I would feel deeply uncomfortable about it.

So Mumsnet, tell me what you think!

OP posts:
deakymom · 09/07/2014 09:44

hmm im disappointed they can be taken to court to be honest because if you are a muslim you can refuse to sell pork pork products and alcohol as its against your beliefs but if you're christian you can not refuse to do anything that is against your beliefs

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10532782/Muslim-staff-at-Marks-and-Spencer-can-refuse-to-sell-alcohol-and-pork.html

my DH works with several gentleman who is muslim he has to pray five times a day and the company accommodates this they also accommodate ramadan although technically you are not supposed to eat "on duty" as they have to fast all day it means if they do a night shift they eat the entire night shift

MaidOfStars · 09/07/2014 09:47

When you think about it, a bakery might be a very lucrative business for a Christian. Also, fishmongering.

Remarkably low 'goods in' costs.

Grin
doobledootch · 09/07/2014 09:48

I can legitimately refuse to sell cake to a gay BNP supporter or for that matter a gay, black, female SNP supporter. I disagree fundamentally with their political views.

This is exactly the same as what they have done. They have refused to sell someone a cake based on disagreement with their political views.

OwlCapone · 09/07/2014 09:48

So, basically, the bakery simply refused to decorate a cake with a slogan they disagreed with and the customer simply went to another bakery?

deakymom · 09/07/2014 09:49

and i've just checked gay marriage is still illegal in that area so they should be within their rights to refuse to support an illegal act nothing to do with religion

APlaceOnTheCouch · 09/07/2014 09:54

OwlCapone yy exactly except on the way to the other bakery, the campaigning organisation went to the media and sought legal advice. As was said upthread, it's been a very good public relations exercise for Queerspace, and their campaign.

aurynne · 09/07/2014 10:02

For goodness sake, they did not have to ENDORSE the message on the cake, just to write it! Why is the business supposed to endorse the message? It's not a cake for you, or from you, it's a cake for another person, a customer with their own beliefs, which have nothing to do with the baker's beliefs and shouldn't have to. If they will only print messages they "endorse" or "support", they should specify this clearly, because it is quite a big deal... it implies customers should first pass messages through the shop's owner, to make sure he supports the content of the message. Which happens to be ridiculous.

MrsMcColl · 09/07/2014 10:08

YABU to talk about 'trendy rights'. I think you've told us what we need to know about your views on equality.

MaidOfStars · 09/07/2014 10:09

For goodness sake, they did not have to ENDORSE the message on the cake, just to write it!

Are you saying that if you saw a banner proclaiming 'behead those who oppress Islam' with a company logo on it, you wouldn't assume the company endorsed the message and were happy to have their name associated with it?

writtenguarantee · 09/07/2014 10:13

For goodness sake, they did not have to ENDORSE the message on the cake, just to write it!

would you say that to someone who wanted "BNP: " on their cake? Of course they don't have to agree with everything they write, but they shouldn't be compelled to write something they don't want to.

hmm im disappointed they can be taken to court to be honest because if you are a muslim you can refuse to sell pork pork products and alcohol as its against your beliefs but if you're christian you can not refuse to do anything that is against your beliefs

This is one of the reasons I wouldn't want to get into this. Christians clearly feel persecuted and, while I think they are off their rocker, they can certainly point to things like muslims not selling pork in M&S as evidence (which, to me, is odd).

APlaceOnTheCouch · 09/07/2014 10:14

aurynne the cake was for a campaign and was shown on Queerspace's website. If they credit the bakery then it looks like an endorsement from the bakery for the campaign.
As for making it clear what the bakery won't make, I imagine they will have something that states they will consider each commission on its own merits. Bakeries regularly turn down commissions for a variety of reasons eg lack of expertise; busy schedule, etc. No customer walking into a bakery has the right to demand a product unless that product is already offered for sale.

aurynne · 09/07/2014 10:14

As I mentioned before, refusing to print an illegal, racist or offensive message is one thing (which probably every business does). But that is NOT what this issue is about, there is nothing racist, illegal or offensive in the message which was rejected.

Even so, if I saw a banner or a cake with a racist or terrorist-supporting, or plainly offensive message, I would assume it represents the ideology of the person carrying and showing the banner, or ordering the cake... I honestly would not even think about the business who printed/baked the banner/cake. And once again, this is not the case. The customer was not inciting to violence, being racist or offensive in any way. The baker did not need to agree, let alone "endorse" every message on their cakes. Their reaction shows they are making their business all about themselves personally, which is plain stupid. They are there to offer a fairly a-political, impersonal, impartial service: cake baking. Not to preach their religious beliefs through their cakes.

quietbatperson · 09/07/2014 10:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OwlCapone · 09/07/2014 10:57

religion or belief

Looking at it as an atheist from the outside, it seems it is religion or belief other than Christianity.

OwlCapone · 09/07/2014 10:59

I think the bakery should have to serve gay people (which I assume it does).
I do not think they should have to use a slogan they disagree with on the grounds of their beliefs.

ReallyTired · 09/07/2014 11:25

Prehaps an analogy is that midwives and nurses are not forced to provide care for women under going a late term abortion.

They cannot refuse to care for a woman who has had a late term abortion five years ago. They can not refuse to care for women on the basis of religion or sexuality or colour.

" Bakeries regularly turn down commissions for a variety of reasons eg lack of expertise; busy schedule, etc. No customer walking into a bakery has the right to demand a product unless that product is already offered for sale."

I agree. However the bakery should have offered to made/sell Queerspace a standard cake.

Stinkle · 09/07/2014 11:29

I think the bakery should have to serve gay people (which I assume it does).
I do not think they should have to use a slogan they disagree with on the grounds of their beliefs.

Yes, I agree. There's nothing to say the bakery refuses to serve gay people full stop, just that they refused to make a particular cake with a slogan that goes directly against their religious beliefs (which is also a protected characteristic)

What if this situation occurred the other way around?

A Christian group wanted a cake with a message in support of the ban on gay marriage, should a gay baker be compelled to make it?

PeppermintInfusion · 09/07/2014 11:42

I think the issue is that they didn't identify themselves as a 'Christian' bakery previously so it was not obvious that they would react this way. Similarly, a baker might be gay but not see this in any association with their work- they are there to bake. If they have a Christian agenda and it might influence their work, I believe they could clearly indicate that so an informed decision can be made to support that business
I think the reaction to this incident is more in regards to the bigger issue in NI of the religious fundamentalism that these views are borne out of- the same as the minister and politician's recent comments about Muslims, previous public comments about homosexuality being a curable abomination rather than an informed belief. This particular branch if Christianity is know for intolerance and imposing their beliefs on others

ObfusKate · 09/07/2014 11:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

purits · 09/07/2014 11:45

Their reaction shows they are making their business all about themselves personally, which is plain stupid.

What? Taking a moral stand is me-me-me? Hmm
Would you rather businesses take any money, no questions asked?

Stalinssister · 09/07/2014 11:48

The bakers are bigots, and also could be accused of being (as they were very amusingly in the Guardian in the comments under the article on the G's website yesterday); Muppets. (the couple wanted a design featuring two Muppet characters on the cake). That made me laugh.

Some of the comments on this thread, unbelievable. Bakers have the legal right to be bigots because gay marriage is illegal in Northern Ireland! And it's a "private business" so it should be okay for them to be bigots. No it's not, businesses are all subject to UK law. There is no such thing as a "private" business in those terms.

Also it's a "Christian belief" so it should be protected. Why? Equality law trumps the "right" to be a bigot based on "religion", and so it should.

Oh yeah, will any of you be contacting your MP or doing ANYTHING practical in the real world about this at all? As you feel so strongly?

WhoDaresWins · 09/07/2014 11:53

I don't think you should be compelled to print a message that's illegal. A cake saying 'behead all those who insult Islam' or 'Throw all non-whites out of England' could be argued to be inciting racial hatred or racially offensive and therefore against the law and you'd be entitled to say no.

'We support gay marriage' is not an illegal thing to say and so the bakers are discriminating on the grounds of homosexuality and that's against the law.

PeppermintInfusion · 09/07/2014 11:54

Couldn't agree more Stalinssister!

If they were asked to make a cock cake with obscenities iced on it, they may have some (shaky) grounds. But nothing on that cake is offensive, 'queer' is a recognised term.

I'm sure if they are bigoted against this, it wouldn't be the only thing they might discriminate against.

Live and let live, each to their own would go a long way with people like this.

purits · 09/07/2014 11:55

They haven't been organising anti-gay protests (AFAIK), they were minding their own business. Until someone came along and asked them to promote something that they don't believe in. Why should they be forced to do that - that's a short step to the world of the Thought Police.

If I was Mayor of Town X and someone asked me to produce a cake/banner/flag saying 'Town Y is the best' would you expect me to comply?

LurcioAgain · 09/07/2014 12:01

purits - do you want to go back to the days when landlords could put up signs saying "no blacks or Irish"? And presuming you don't, what's the difference in this particular case?