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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think sending (academic Yr 10 pupils out on a weeks work experience is a waste of time).

294 replies

smokepole · 07/07/2014 12:15

I can understand the point of work experience, for some pupils but surely the more academic pupils would be better off having the week in the classroom. My DDs 2 grammar form teacher agreed with me, along with all the difficulty in finding work placements and insurance implications. It surely can be of limited benefit for students who will mostly go in to higher education. I believe schools should be able to decide which students, would benefit from work experience . The schools should also be able to decide to opt out of the scheme, if they think there 15 year old pupils would benefit more in a classroom environment.

On the other hand for non academic pupils, it can be a pleasant change.
This was the case for pupils from DDs 1 secondary school, who in many cases actually enjoyed their week in industry. It is also more relevant to those students as most will not go in to higher education and therefore, helps them gain relevant experience early.

OP posts:
Delphiniumsblue · 08/07/2014 18:08

The whole world thinks they know what being a teacher is like because they went to school! Very true, Gnome.

Delphiniumsblue · 08/07/2014 18:10

A friend's son is in charge of graduate training for Tesco- he started by stacking shelves aged 16 yrs. No better place to start than the bottom.

minifingers · 08/07/2014 18:12

YABU

Don't 'academic' kids have to get a job at some point? Hmm

My very non-academic (ie, bright but non-studious) 14 year old dd has just finished her work experience at a day care centre for adults with learning and physical disabilities. It's been an amazing experience for her and has bought out a level of maturity and confidence in her I didn't know she possessed. She's accompanied groups of learning disabled adults to the park and shops, attended some Makaton classes, supported clients at hydrotherapy, taken part in a music session, and sat in and listened to case reports. She came away saying 'it was brilliant' and is hoping to return over the summer to help as a volunteer.

Being clever and academically ambitious doesn't mean you can't grow from exposure to a different side of life.

Delphiniumsblue · 08/07/2014 18:16

Well said, minifingers. If you don't want the money there are lots of volunteering opportunities where you can do things for others.

minifingers · 08/07/2014 18:17

My dd's WE was organised by the council. They had a website with loads of offers on it. She could have worked at an artisan bakery, in a nursery, at a record company, for a supermarket, at a school, at a drop in for the elderly etc etc. There were dozens to choose from. DD was really lucky in that there was a manager at her placement who took the task of supervising her WE very carefully, and made sure that she was learning the whole time she was there. I'm not sure everyone who did WE at her school had as positive an experience.

TheFairyCaravan · 08/07/2014 19:02

Thank you Gnome!

Good luck to your DS, too. I hope he gets what he wants, also. Smile

mathanxiety · 08/07/2014 20:43

I don't understand how you are distinguishing between placements. Nobody on WE for one week in a solicitor's office (for example) is going to be doing anything more than turning up and pushing paperclips around, checking how low the coffee supplies are getting, and then going home.

All work is work. You are teaching DCs a very poor lesson if you place the work of teenagers in some sort of hierarchy. A teenager who can't learn something valuable from a week stacking shelves or bussing tables or pushing paperclips around is one whose mind is being wasted. Imo.

'I also think the student/pupil should get something meaning and interesting out of it, not just "boredom".'
As a sample of what the world of glittering careers and humdrum jobs alike hold for the enthusiastic, academically-oriented young person, the experience of boredom should not be looked askance at.

BrevilleTron · 08/07/2014 21:38

YABU
I was 'academic' and had two weeks of work experience. One week with the Royal Air Force servicing Harrier Jets and one week in a library.
Both taught me invaluable skills. I would not take that experience away from anyone. No matter how 'academic' they were. It takes all sorts of characters to make a world and without the street cleaners/manufacturers/taxi drivers etc our economic infrastructure would collapse.

How would the brain surgeons/rocket scientists etc get to work or use their tools without the aforementioned people.

Work experience gives a valuable insight into the real world from the relative safety of the school environment.

All should have the opportunity to partake.

mathanxiety · 08/07/2014 22:21

Settingsitting
I would like to ask eg mathanxiety and others whether studing maths at a good uni abroad means that WE is not necessary?

There is no such thing as unnecessary WE imo.
As a pp who is involved in university admissions also pointed out however, having some work experience (no capitals) that you found for yourself and kept at is possibly even more valuable. Or a commitment to volunteering (e.g. several years doing a regular and frequent stint at a homeless shelter).

My own DCs found plenty of opportunities for volunteering through our parish, which sponsors many volunteering groups that are always looking for hands. Examples are church decorating and gardening, home and garden maintenance for elderly parishioners, participating in the Appalachia Service Project, participating in a service project in Detroit, tutoring disadvantaged children in an after school programme, participation in a food pantry in an inner city twin parish, participation in a local homeless care organisation that shelters and feeds the homeless and manages transition to permanent housing, lots and lots of fundraising committee work, planning and execution of fundraisers there is lots more.. They start the teens on compulsory volunteering Wink as part of prep for Confirmation, which happens at age 13/14. The hope is that teens will continue to volunteer even if the only reason to do so is to get brownie points for university applications. Nobody cares as long as what is needed gets done.

The objection (Hakluyt?) that some valuable experiences are beyond the reach of underprivileged students is an interesting one -- the Appalachia Service Project that two of my DCs so far have participated in required finding $350 each to cover their food, basic shelter and transport, and on top of that each student was expected to generate a few hundred dollars more for overheads. They had babysitting money and they also wrote to local offices, restaurants, and businesses of many different kinds asking for any amount of sponsorship. This was a 15 letters sent, 1 reply received proposition. Upon figuring out that her letters had not borne fruit, DD2 dressed herself up, armed herself with brochures and her sponsorship talk, took her spiel to the businesses themselves and spoke personally to managers and in some cases owners, with much better results. The group also ran car washes and bake sales and other fundraisers. Every element of all of this was a valuable experience. I did not contribute financially to any of the DCs' Appalachian Service experience.

If a prospective student of maths is applying to American universities he or she would find plenty of space on application forms to fill in experience outside of school or school-sponsored activities. American universities do not rely on academic results alone when choosing students, even those from overseas iirc.

And as asked many times upthread, what happens when the maths grad tries to enter the workplace but has no way of showing prospective employers how well he or she can work with others and not just on school projects?

Belloc
This thread is about work experience for school kids and pre university. Not the same thing.

They absolutely are the same thing.

Ability to work well with others is a really important element when it comes to discriminating among applicants, all of whom will be very well-qualified, academically speaking. Ability to be consistent and disciplined is another. You can only demonstrate these traits to a prospective employer by having a CV and references.

I know I would be inclined to pick DD1 who had both excellent results and a six-year unbroken work history under her belt upon graduation over someone who had 'merely' excellent results. On her CV by the time she graduated were three summers in a law office at 16, 17 and 18 followed by three years in a medium-sized museum (part time during term and full time during all breaks, in various roles including serving in and managing the little museum restaurant, plus admin and exhibit design) during her undergrad years, as well as Spring Break trips to Habitat for Humanity sites and contributing to building homes for the disadvantaged.

It would have been clear to any prospective employer that DD1 had basically spent 18 hours a day sleeping, going to class and the library (her degree result would have shown that she put her time there to good use) and working at her job, 362 days a year for four years running. She had three rounds of interviews to battle through to get her great job offer, even with an excellent result in economics from a very well regarded university and her excellent CV. The pool her employer recruited from consisted of graduates of excellent universities with results above a certain benchmark.

Belloc
He doesn't need a job for work experience nor for a CV. And he already earns sufficient money to cover his small costs. So he isn't looking for a job. You are really quite maddening.

I beg to differ. Your DS needs teen and student work experience for the CV he will be sending to prospective employers upon graduation, be it ever so humble. So he needs a job or preferably two. The money is immaterial. The sort of work is also immaterial. What is important is that he has a decent CV upon graduation, not merely a parchment, and people willing to provide excellent references.

Otherwise, with the best will in the world, when he hits the recruitment pool, the best he will be capable of is looking like an entry-level graduate who has nothing against the principal of working.

I wish him luck with that. He will be going up against people like my DD1, DS and DD2 for his big break.

settingsitting · 08/07/2014 22:41

Thanks for answering mathanxiety. I was hoping that you would notice my question. I am off to bed now, but will read your reply thoroughly with interest tomorrow. Thanks.

Delphiniumsblue · 08/07/2014 22:56

Thank you, mathanxiety. Surely no one can argue against that?
I should take note because that is the REAL world. I have direct experience of it with 3 children who have gone through the system and I know that mathsanxiety is correct.

missymayhemsmum · 08/07/2014 22:58

Well I did work experience in the graduate profession I was thinking of choosing the A levels for, got inspired, and 5 years later came back as their graduate trainee. My daughter did a weeks office work, learnt that she be never wanted to do office work and got a reference for her sixth form part time job, which in term helped with her personal statement/ CV. My son at 16 did a week setting up PA systems, a week lugging stuff for a plumber, learnt to change a ballvalve, answer a phone and set up a PA and has traded nicely on the latter at a few festivals since. And grew visibly in confidence.
I shamefully neglected my work experience student last week but she still finished the week with admin, phone and customer service training, grew in confidence during the week and learnt to work a shredder, copier and franking machine (ok, and a kettle) all good life skills. She also met lots of new people and widened her horizons.

Sorry, but what of that is less valuable than watching videos with a yawning teacher for the last fortnight of term?

QueenofLouisiana · 08/07/2014 23:02

I did my WE in a Rehabilitation ward for elderly patients. I hated it and vowed never to work in healthcare again. I think that was very useful.

I teach in primary school, we find that we are sent a lot of children (which is what they still are at 14/15) who don't want to teach. They don't want to work with younger children, but they need a placement and we have adults able to deal with their needs. All it does is up our class numbers and give us something else to sort out. The few students who do want to work with children want to stay with "the sweet ones" and get stroppy about spending time with Years 5 and 6.

However, I still think it is a valuable thing to be able to offer. The girls who had to be sent home to put on clothes suitable for the classroom were not impressed, but surely it was better to make that mistake with us rather than in a first job? The students who were asked to work until 4.15 when they had expected to leave at 3.10 got an insight into the real world- whether they wanted it or not.

Mabelface · 08/07/2014 23:05

It got my year 10 daughter a Saturday job ad they liked her so much and she did so well.

NurseRoscoe · 09/07/2014 00:15

I'm at university, doing a degree in Adult Nursing. 50% of our course is placement based, as believe it or not, all higher education courses are meant to lead to a job in the end! There is only so much you can learn from the classroom.

It may not have been your intention but this post sounds a bit 'Katie Hopkins'? very snobbish. Children need to learn that no matter how clever & privileged they are, they will need to work for their money one day.

Happydaysatlastforthebody · 09/07/2014 00:54

Thanks op.

Just she you thought mumsnet couldn't get any funnier you poke your head out from under your bridge.

Brilliant laugh well done.

VenusDeWillendorf · 09/07/2014 02:24

I'm at a loss to see why posters are berating Belloc on this thread, when she has a perfectly situated thread of her own if you're so inclined.

Imvho w.e. isn't necessary, until you get to the last year in uni. if then.

Not everyone wants to work for someone, and I don't think that someone who already writes apps and sells them in the App Store needs to stack shelves. If fact it's a negative.

I have my own company, and have never needed a cv. My work speaks for itself. I've been headhunted across the world.
I've employed return to work mothers who had no cv.
Couldn't give a rat's ass if someone babysat, stacked shelves or had a paper round. Never asked.
If they can speak a few languages, and program, they're ok by me.

Unusual extra curricular like, say, Territorial Army, diving and flying licence are always a plus, but only as they are interesting, and it shows that the person isn't going to drone on and on about their paper rounds over coffee.

Jobs like babysitting or shelf stacking are well and good for those who want to work for someone who cares about covering their ass in the HR department, and requires such a wall to wall of worthy history, but they are a complete waste of time imvho!

I think of those jobs as a negative, and never to be mentioned. If i saw that someone did stack shelves, i would wonder what the hell went wrong with them that summer, unless they were stacking them in Forn parts, and learning Italian, say, on the pillow.

Having a portfolio of apps, (and, like Belloc's DS, with a healthy bank balance to show for it) is far more important than just punching in and out in some fluorescent lit warehouse as some kind of little cog every summer from 16 till 22.

I suppose for those not in a creative industry, the CV listing those cog jobs is important to HR departments, but for those who are entrepreneurial, and creative, it's a complete waste of time. You need a portfolio and vision for that.

mathanxiety · 09/07/2014 03:12

Link?

'If they can speak a few languages, and program, they're ok by me. '
But everyone else needs something to show for their late teen and university years.

The vast majority of former sahms with nothing on a CV will find 99% of doors closed to them, and the longer they are out of the workforce the more likely it is that they will turn to something like cleaning, etc. You probably can't employ them all, sadly.

I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that technology moves at a fast lick these days -- apps may be flavour of the month right now but there are no guarantees.

And there are vastly more areas of toil than just those that attract creative and entrepreneurial spirits. The majority of people will see no problem 'working for someone else' and will find all kinds of fulfillment working with whatever their career consists of, and will be able to pay for all those apps, etc..

froofoo2 · 09/07/2014 03:25

The more academic one's have to make a choice about a job at some point in their lives though?! Even if that choice were to be academia!!

Delphiniumsblue · 09/07/2014 07:34

Very strange VenusDeWillendorf that my youngest son is in just the sort of creative field that you are writing about. Every job had over 100 applying for it, all with portfolios and vision. I don't think he was ever up against return to work mothers with no CV!
If people reading this have children who haven't yet reached the university stage I would recommend they follow the advice of MathsAnxiety and ignore the likes of Venus- in any field.

settingsitting · 09/07/2014 07:50

Some excellent posts.

I suppose what is still niggling me is the nepotism.

If in reality, Belloc's husband or friend or brother in law or... is CEO or whatever they are called of a merchant bank or whatever, then her son does not need WE?

Because if he just walks in through the open door to him, he is in. And assuming he does an okish job, he gets to stay.

settingsitting · 09/07/2014 07:51

Equally, perhaps Belloc is just assuming that he will set up his own vompany or business. So no need to impress or work for anyone else.

settingsitting · 09/07/2014 07:53

company. Thinking about it, I vaguely know someone like this, who works from home in his parent's house. Rent free. Business is shaky, but it is newish. And he gets all the support he needs from his retired dad.

fatowl · 09/07/2014 08:30

My dd is currently on work experience (she is in Y11, our school do it after the exams have finished)

She is "academic" as the OP puts it, but it's proving a valuable experience. She is shadowing in different depts on an engineering company. Her favourite thing so far was piping (she assures me it's more interesting than it sounds)

Provided she passes the GCSEs she will do maths and science A-levels but I still think it's been a useful week.

The OP is being a bit condescending IMO, re a "nice break" for the thick kids

FiveLittleSpeckledFrogsSatOnAS · 09/07/2014 08:41

What a load of rubbish, I got 12 A*s and As at gcse and left and went into care work at a residential home at 16 as that was what I wanted to do. Since when does 'academic' equal university?
It is also useful for all students as it can provide a reference for part time work and give them an insight into real life rather than there being a possibility of getting to 21 in an education bubble without ever having worked.