To think sending (academic Yr 10 pupils out on a weeks work experience is a waste of time).

[smokepole]

I can understand the point of work experience, for some pupils but surely the more academic pupils would be better off having the week in the classroom. My DDs 2 grammar form teacher agreed with me, along with all the difficulty in finding work placements and insurance implications. It surely can be of limited benefit for students who will mostly go in to higher education. I believe schools should be able to decide which students, would benefit from work experience . The schools should also be able to decide to opt out of the scheme, if they think there 15 year old pupils would benefit more in a classroom environment.

On the other hand for non academic pupils, it can be a pleasant change.
This was the case for pupils from DDs 1 secondary school, who in many cases actually enjoyed their week in industry. It is also more relevant to those students as most will not go in to higher education and therefore, helps them gain relevant experience early.

[WeirdCatLady]

I went to a very good school and everyone was expected to continue on in education until at least degree level. When we were applying to WE placements our teachers told us to chose something we would never otherwise try. I did a week at a newspaper and it was great fun. They published two of my articles and I still have paper copies of them now.

[GnomeDePlume]

VenusDeWillendorf

Creativity & vision are undoubtedly fine and dandy in a niche but in companies like Unilever and P&G who are genuine global companies then a portfolio of work done for a tutor does not show the recruiter what the potential recruit can actually do for a paying client.

A portfolio of actually paid for by somebody else work would demonstrate work experience. Everything else is just school work or hobby.

[Delphiniumsblue]

Exactly Gnome. My DS's portfolio was able to include some paid work that he had done for people in his spare time.

[Thefishewife]

Just because your bright it doesn't mean you won't be work shy and know the value of work


My dear brother in law has a first from Oxford and is currently sleeping in a flat his parents pay for has has not had a job since he left uni he is 27 btw I think do him more time learning the value of money and less time being told how bright he was may of made him less of a dosser

[Thefishewife]

Oh and often the incredibly bright can be the most difficult people to work with and it's likely they need some work experience

[smokepole]

Fishwife. Some people with 'poor' grades and a bad impression of themselves , could do with being told how 'bright' they are.

[VenusDeWillendorf]

Not true gnome. I look at apps and other programming as a hobby is just as valid as that done for a client.
If it works it's ok.

Of course if it looks like shit and doesn't work, it doesn't matter if it was done for money or not- it's still shit.

I collaborate with people for my business who 'fit' a skillset. How they got those skills, either for money or not is immaterial: I don't care.
If they work late at night in their PJs I couldn't give a hoot: and indeed some do!!
I collaborated recently with a new mum who was breastfeding and coded / designed when she was could.
Got emails from her all times of the day and night. She sent me some lovely work, and will be paid for it.

I really think these tech jobs are fab for those who haven't got all the supports in life that traditional shiny suit jobs need. She didn't need a cv to work for/ with me, just show me her portfolio/ links and commit to doing the work, and send it to me on time.

I'm not a cookie cut out as a person, and have yet to meet one.
Maybe it's time for us all to be more compassionate in our work lives, and to try and change the world so the cog jobs are done by cogs, not humans!

I don't think it's necessary to earn your living by denying your humanity. Life is short. There are new ways of earning money to live on, and we shouldn't try to fit square pegs into round holes- it's not in anyone's interest (unless the diameter of the hole is greater than the hypotenuse).

[Delphiniumsblue]

Of course you can do a lot on the Internet with sites like 'per people per hour'- my SIL is just the sort of person you are describing but it is very uncertain income and not what a young person wants setting out. My son did designing (and getting paid) in his bedroom but it doesn't match working in an office of a large company with a salary, subsidised meals, social event etc. etc

[mathanxiety]

Venus -- I have done that sort of work too (not coding however). I suspect because of the lack of predictability to the income it suits people with another source of income on top of what they can earn on that sort of basis. Most people have bills to pay, and a lot of the time are looking for permanent, full time employment once their children are school-age but keeping their hand in in the meantime.

While a portfolio is more important than a formal work record in piece work, a CV of sorts is actually what you are talking about when you mention a 'portfolio' -- just not a traditional CV. If your producers are not able to produce what you need on time I suspect you would have wished you could contact others they had arranged to do work for, and find out how unreliable they were before they let you down?

I really don't understand the disparagement of 'cog jobs' and the implication that people who do them are some sort of two dimensional cut outs. They have been and remain the way millions of women throughout the world make a living in a structured environment where they have rights, personal safety, sometimes a chance of advancement, and they can fund retirement -- no fancy standard of living and no fancy retirement either, but so much better for them than the alternatives (depending on a husband, depending on the state).

And I don't know where the idea comes from that people who do jobs you might consider boring are denying their humanity either. Maybe they are actually accepting their humanity in all its aspects? It is perfectly human to acknowledge your responsibilities (to children perhaps?) and therefore to want a reliable income, to want set hours for work and family, to be able to plan a holiday and save for a child's education. Just because an ambition may look staid doesn't mean it isn't worthy of respect.

[VenusDeWillendorf]

It was my understanding we were talking about teens, pre uni teens in particular, and in particular one who has already earned money by writing apps.

If these teens have kids, then yes, they may want to punch and punch out at a mindless cog job as their life interest is elsewhere.
Not ideal imvho, when your work is just a means to an end, and let someone else do the thinking. This compartmentalisation of work and life is damaging to everyone and everything in this world.

We all have a responsibility to making the world a better place and leaving it in a better state than we find it.

It's our duty as humans to improve ourselves and contribute to the world.

Mindless working in a cog job where you put on a uniform and obey orders fit in as best as you can, denying your own instincts, and irrespective of your skills and talents as an aspiration doesn't really garner any respect from me for that.

Maybe it's time for more of us to earn our living doing something we do when living our lives, not separate from it.

I understand that for post teens and women returning to work after childcare years spent out of the traditional paid workplace for eg, that a regular income is a worthy thing, and have respect for breadwinners everywhere. I'm one myself.

I have employed returning to work mothers with no CVs on the basis that they wanted to do work, and were reliable, multi tasking, good natured, compassionate people with life skills and excellent time management experience.

But I never employed someone who thought of themselves as a cog, and would feel that someone who thinks like that needs to reevaluate their skills, and remind themselves of their core competences, and rebrand themselves, in everybody's best interest. Life is short, and work should be part of life, not separate from it IMO.

[Delphiniumsblue]

I like it in a separate compartment. You go to work outside the home- and once you walk out you forget it and your time is your own. Sadly it rarely works like that.
You are part of a team when you work- an important cog and I really don't see why it should be mindless.
All much better than being on zero hours- given work when it suits and none when it doesn't.
Even if teens are going to be self employed it is a good idea to experience the world of work.

[GnomeDePlume]

VenusDeWillendorf out of curiosity, are the people you described as working for you actually employed by you or are they self-employed?

[mathanxiety]

Again the 'mindless cog job' and the 'punch in punch out' and 'let someone else do the thinking' cliches.

I think it's our responsibility as humans not to look down our noses at other people's jobs or project our own tastes onto others. Particularly when our appreciation of those occupations seems to come straight out of some Beat Generation poetry collection.

I think it behoves us to respect the concept of 'different strokes for different folks'.

Your black and white thinking on this may have the advantage of allowing you to congratulate yourself on your own choices, but I think you should realise that your perceptions of how other people spend their time may be unrelated to what they actually spend their time at, or how much personal satisfaction or personal investment they have in what they do.

All much better than being on zero hours- given work when it suits and none when it doesn't.
Been there, done that, bulldog went hungry a lot of the time. Not the ideal solution for someone with small mouths to feed 365 days a year.

I rebranded myself as someone who deserved rights related to my work.

[rockybalboa]

What a very bizarre post OP. Do the academically minded pupils not intend to ever enter the workforce then?

[VenusDeWillendorf]

Employed gnome, with all the responsibilities falling on me as employer.
I did the thinking, paid the salaries, and all the overheads, and the rates etc etc...
And other clichés like that....

[smokepole]

Rocky. I am talking about 14/15 year old children, not 21 or even 17 year old's .

Rocky you will also be aware that I stated two important issues regarding work experience at this age. The first of these issues is that the best placements go to, the kids who have the greatest benefits . This happens either through the schools quality or because of their families affluence. I also stated that pupils coming from the less successful or more deprived backgrounds are in need of the better placements. The reason for this is obvious, if these deprived children can at least have a glimpse of something brighter or different, it will surely have greater benefit to them.

You only have to read many of the posts , saying how my child got to work in a science lab for his work experience to see how 'quality' placements are determined by the child's family.

The children who need the 'science laboratory' placements are most likely to end up having their placements in the 'caf'.

[Delphiniumsblue]

I can see that it works well for you, Venus. You get workers when you want them. I can't see why it is good for them-they would be better cutting you out and getting a job direct with your clients-unless I am missing something.
It is fairly irrelevant anyway to a 15/16yr old getting work experience. It is a pity however that it very often depends on who the parents know.

[GnomeDePlume]

Fair enough Venus, undoubtedly your way works for you and your business. For me the work experience of the graduate trainee I recently recruited was key. It wasnt high level but it told me a lot as he understood the context of his experience. Work experience might not be relevant to your business but it is in mine.

You may see the businesses that I have worked in as dull and see me as a cog but I enjoy my work enormously. It is possible to be a part of a large organisation and get a lot of satisfaction out of the work.

Horses for courses and all that.

[susiey]

I did work experience in a school nursery when I was in year 10 and LOVED it . I was academic but it just confirmed I wanted to work with kids but not in schools. It also showed that working a full day is exhausting.

YABU

[mathanxiety]

'...with all the responsibilities falling on me as employer.
I did the thinking, paid the salaries, and all the overheads, and the rates etc etc...
And other clichés like that....'

If you have designed the work you set to not require any thinking, and if you manage without the aim of allowing employees to feel they share the responsibility then you are probably not as good an employer as you could be. The best companies and the best employers manage to convey to their employees a sense of common ownership. It tends to encourage creativity, productivity and loyalty.

[GnomeDePlume]

Thinking about the work experience I saw on CVs while recruiting recently.

IMO the high end experiences are not always as useful as they are dressed up to be. If the student doesnt really understand the context of the work they are doing (as can happen when the student is doing WE in 'daddy's firm') then the value of the experience is limited.

[KikitheKitKat]

I know several 'academic', i.e. grammar scholl kids who did work experience and loved it. Why would academic children not? They choose what sort of work they would prefer to do - they are not put into factories for the week! I know one who worked in a school, one who worked in marketing and another in a leisure centre. Even if they don't work in that area eventually the experience of being expected to act like an emplyee for a week is valuable.

[IrianofWay]

Ah well. DD's WE has gone resoundingly well as it happens. HT got a call from the vet to say that DD is the best WE pupil they have ever had and that if they could give her a job now they would!

Now if they can just keep a job open for the next 10 years till she qualifies .....

[gasman]

I'm a doctor. Whilst my work experience aged 14 wasn't particularly scintillating (I worked on the admin side in a GP practice) it stood me in good stead and meant that years later as a medical student on a GP placement the practice paid me to extra typing and filing after my clinical commitments ended as they were short of admin staff. During my school/early University years I did a variety of retail sector jobs. Sometimes it was dull manning a supermarket checkout but I wouldn't have had nearly as nice a student lifestyle as I did had I not done it. I also learned loads of customer service skills (especially when I got promoted off the checkout) etc. All of those non technical skills have stood me in really good stead in my career.

I have several friends both doctors and from other disciplines (including science PhDs) who had wealthy parents who subsidised them through school and university. When the time came to actually work the first group struggled with the nitty gritty of payslips/ work admin and all the non clinical shit that junior doctors do. Some of the second group found it terribly hard to get a job at all - I suspect strongly that having had some workplace experience and skills would have really helped.

Nowadays I get work experience kids allocated to me on a semi-regular basis. They tend to be a little older (often in L6th) but I am regularly struck by how socially inept they are. I just want them to make conversation with me, and to my patients. A huge part of anaesthesia is making really anxious people less anxious. If you can't bring yourself to make eye contact or small talk in that situation you are going to struggle with any career in medicine (and before anyone quips about Pathology several of my pathologist friends meet families to verbally deliver post mortem results = a huge need for social skills). Doing "menial" customer facing jobs really helps develop those skills IMO.

I also think there is a huge difference between the kids I see from the independent sector and those from the state sector. The latter often don't have the same social ease. I'm not sure if this is actually attributable to the school or to other social factors. As someone largely educated in the state sector I find this very disappointing. The state system should be able to give students entering university a level playing field to apply from. However it obviously is failing to do this.

So I think YABVU. If anything I think academic kids need the work experience more.

[RevoltingPeasant]

I never understand the distinction between academic and practical that so many people seem to sign up to.

If your child ends up being an actual academic, eg, you know they will most likely spend their lives working to challenging deadlines, generating income (grant money), working with others (research collaborators, public engagement) and generally need excellent time management and to be very on the ball?

I would say most "academic" careers - barrister, doctor, etc - probably involve a large amount of practicality and self-management.