To think sending (academic Yr 10 pupils out on a weeks work experience is a waste of time).

[smokepole]

I can understand the point of work experience, for some pupils but surely the more academic pupils would be better off having the week in the classroom. My DDs 2 grammar form teacher agreed with me, along with all the difficulty in finding work placements and insurance implications. It surely can be of limited benefit for students who will mostly go in to higher education. I believe schools should be able to decide which students, would benefit from work experience . The schools should also be able to decide to opt out of the scheme, if they think there 15 year old pupils would benefit more in a classroom environment.

On the other hand for non academic pupils, it can be a pleasant change.
This was the case for pupils from DDs 1 secondary school, who in many cases actually enjoyed their week in industry. It is also more relevant to those students as most will not go in to higher education and therefore, helps them gain relevant experience early.

[InterestedIgnoramus]

I haven't read all twelve pages, I'm afraid, but just wanted to say that work experience can take many forms! I shadowed a crown court barrister for mine, which is an experience I'll never forget. I was at an ordinary state school in a rural area so it wasn't a case of being in a privileged position to get more unusual work experience - it was just about being imaginative and willing to ask if an opportunity might be there. Some of my friends went to local labs, others to building control, etc. There can be options for students with all sorts of different skills and aspirations if the school is willing to make the effort.

[fairylightsintheloft]

Even the most menial and basic work exp can be invaluable. You are in an adult environment, expected to dress and behave appropriately and will not be just vaguely reprimanded or ignored if you don't. Many 15/16 year olds will want Saturday jobs during their further studies and any insight into the professional environment is useful. mumtoateen your DD can learn loads about organisation, crowd control, empathy, using common sense, reacting to and coping with unexpected situations, problem solving etc in the days that you list. Even if she does spend some time doing photocopying or display work, its all useful in some way. I had many p/t jobs when I was studying in shops, bars, libraries. None of them connected to what I do (teach) but I learnt skills in all of them, both specific and more general in terms of professionalism.

[CrayolaCocaColaRocknRolla]

im sorry but i am just a receptionist. i didn't hire them my boss promised their dads. i'm there as an apprentice myself. i just answer phones. we're a VERY small company, lol.

[Delphiniumsblue]

It really irritates me if people agree to have them and then don't do anything of any value-DON'T HAVE THEM if you can be bothered.

[Delphiniumsblue]

Why did you take them if there was nothing to do?! We had two last week and they not only had things to do-a programme was sorted that gave variety.
It isn't supposed to help get a job. It isn't supposed to go on a CV.Some people entirely miss the point!

[CrayolaCocaColaRocknRolla]

I just don't think work experience is needed, at all. It never helped me get a job, there was no point in doing it, no one cares that its on your CV. I got my job by being a good speaker! I really do think its a waste of time. We've just had pupils in and there was NOTHING for them to do.

[Delphiniumsblue]

With all the perks that regular work gives.

[Delphiniumsblue]

And has never paid well. Much better to get rid of the middle man and work for the firm/company direct.

[mathanxiety]

My mother used to work that way sewing wedding dresses, doing embroidery and beading, etc. It's the same system as pre-Industrial Revolution putting-out/home weaving that women did.

[Delphiniumsblue]

I can see why it suits Venus, but it is hardly a good career choice unless you already have another family member producing a regular income.
No overheads, no pension scheme, no sick pay, no holiday pay. If there is work you find someone suitable to do it- once done you just keep them on hold and if they are lucky some more work might come their way.
Suitable for those who want to work from home and not have childcare problems, those job seeking who want something on CVs, students, those with a chronic illness or those who just want a bit of pin money. Or maybe I am missing something? I can't see why it is preferable to being a 'cog'.

[mathanxiety]

'The White Man's Burden' management model.

[mumtoateen]

YANBU
DD(15) goes out tomorrow to a primary school ending term. Sports day Monday, trips Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday and games day Friday. She learns nothing.
Many placements have Ben cancelled with DD's year, with two or three pupils going to one place and the employers pulling out. Left with about 20 actually going from 120
Waste of her time in lessons

[sashh]

VenusDeWillendorf

You have made me realise why so many apps/programs are not accessible to many people with a disability.

Someone coding in their PJs may well be OK but sending them to an office where someone can't use a mouse or can't read on a white background would be incredibly useful in terms of creating apps that can be used by as many people as possible.

[Delphiniumsblue]

It is also highly difficult to get a job stacking shelves these days - the competition is tough! It would teach a 14/15 yr old a lot - especially if they managed to land it as a Saturday job when they were 16 yrs.

[GnomeDePlume]

Not sure how stacking shelves will teach 14 yo anything useful- apart from how to stack shelves, if that.

If you have stepped into a supermarket in the last few years you will have noticed that shelf stacking is done while the store is open. The shelf stacker will be about the first person a customer will talk to if they cant find the toothpaste/flour/mushrooms. The shelf stacker will need to know the layout of the store. the shelf stacker will need to be polite, aware, oh and also know how to stack the shelves.

If you arent aware, large manufacturers pay a small fortune in rebates to supermarkets to ensure their goods are on the shelf, visible and available. Screwing that up can cost the likes of Asda/Tesco/Sainsbury real money.

There is a lot more to shelf stacking that just putting the goods on the shelf.

[VenusDeWillendorf]

Smokepole, I think how to make sales is a very important part of any business, or profession - in fact it's the most important part of any business: without sales, everything goes tits up.
In the end everything is bums on seats, or shipping units.

That's a lesson that should be taught from primary school up-
drama class with role play!
Not sure how stacking shelves will teach 14 yo anything useful- apart from how to stack shelves, if that.

Maths, the thinking I mention is mostly about the direction of the company- where to head for and how to get there with the people and their skills. What contracts to bid for: what kinds of teams to put together- who we can use from the stable, and what support we need from the ground staff.
We train our people relentlessly, and value their opinions, but the decisions are made by the directors, and we own the fuckups too: we take the hit if things go pear shaped.

[Verystickypaws]

I'm glad my surgeon was academic, practical and dexterous.

[smokepole]

DD told me she actually enjoyed the change and the new environment of working in the call centre of a big company for a week. I don't know how much she learned as most of the time she just watched staff deal and listen to irate customers.

DD also enjoyed coming just before 5 pm each night and having the rest of the night to herself with no pressure doing homework for 2 hrs. DD said it was easier for her than school, with less pressure attached!

[GnomeDePlume]

gasman - what do you mean by social ease? IMO it would be worthwhile exploring for yourself what you mean by this.

If what you mean is knowing what to wear and what to say in specific settings then consider how organisations like, say, the armed forces deal with this. Basically they teach it.

DD2 recently attended an ATC dining in night. This was a formal occasion, mess kit for those who had it. Cadets were told what to wear, how to socialise (group size, topics of conversation).

These were 14-17 year olds from a fairly rough midlands town. SFAIAA none are from independent schools yet all managed to behave impeccably.

This type of social ease isnt a birthright or an innate skill. It is something which can be taught very easily especially if the teacher gets over the embarrassment of telling someone that they havent dressed correctly

Something else to consider is that the person who doesnt present themselves at ease in your society may well be at ease in another society. While they need to get past the interview to get the job it is the people they have to work with who they perhaps need to have more empathy with.

[RevoltingPeasant]

I never understand the distinction between academic and practical that so many people seem to sign up to.

If your child ends up being an actual academic, eg, you know they will most likely spend their lives working to challenging deadlines, generating income (grant money), working with others (research collaborators, public engagement) and generally need excellent time management and to be very on the ball?

I would say most "academic" careers - barrister, doctor, etc - probably involve a large amount of practicality and self-management.

[gasman]

I'm a doctor. Whilst my work experience aged 14 wasn't particularly scintillating (I worked on the admin side in a GP practice) it stood me in good stead and meant that years later as a medical student on a GP placement the practice paid me to extra typing and filing after my clinical commitments ended as they were short of admin staff. During my school/early University years I did a variety of retail sector jobs. Sometimes it was dull manning a supermarket checkout but I wouldn't have had nearly as nice a student lifestyle as I did had I not done it. I also learned loads of customer service skills (especially when I got promoted off the checkout) etc. All of those non technical skills have stood me in really good stead in my career.

I have several friends both doctors and from other disciplines (including science PhDs) who had wealthy parents who subsidised them through school and university. When the time came to actually work the first group struggled with the nitty gritty of payslips/ work admin and all the non clinical shit that junior doctors do. Some of the second group found it terribly hard to get a job at all - I suspect strongly that having had some workplace experience and skills would have really helped.

Nowadays I get work experience kids allocated to me on a semi-regular basis. They tend to be a little older (often in L6th) but I am regularly struck by how socially inept they are. I just want them to make conversation with me, and to my patients. A huge part of anaesthesia is making really anxious people less anxious. If you can't bring yourself to make eye contact or small talk in that situation you are going to struggle with any career in medicine (and before anyone quips about Pathology several of my pathologist friends meet families to verbally deliver post mortem results = a huge need for social skills). Doing "menial" customer facing jobs really helps develop those skills IMO.

I also think there is a huge difference between the kids I see from the independent sector and those from the state sector. The latter often don't have the same social ease. I'm not sure if this is actually attributable to the school or to other social factors. As someone largely educated in the state sector I find this very disappointing. The state system should be able to give students entering university a level playing field to apply from. However it obviously is failing to do this.

So I think YABVU. If anything I think academic kids need the work experience more.

[IrianofWay]

Ah well. DD's WE has gone resoundingly well as it happens. HT got a call from the vet to say that DD is the best WE pupil they have ever had and that if they could give her a job now they would!

Now if they can just keep a job open for the next 10 years till she qualifies .....

[KikitheKitKat]

I know several 'academic', i.e. grammar scholl kids who did work experience and loved it. Why would academic children not? They choose what sort of work they would prefer to do - they are not put into factories for the week! I know one who worked in a school, one who worked in marketing and another in a leisure centre. Even if they don't work in that area eventually the experience of being expected to act like an emplyee for a week is valuable.

[GnomeDePlume]

Thinking about the work experience I saw on CVs while recruiting recently.

IMO the high end experiences are not always as useful as they are dressed up to be. If the student doesnt really understand the context of the work they are doing (as can happen when the student is doing WE in 'daddy's firm') then the value of the experience is limited.

[mathanxiety]

'...with all the responsibilities falling on me as employer.
I did the thinking, paid the salaries, and all the overheads, and the rates etc etc...
And other clichés like that....'

If you have designed the work you set to not require any thinking, and if you manage without the aim of allowing employees to feel they share the responsibility then you are probably not as good an employer as you could be. The best companies and the best employers manage to convey to their employees a sense of common ownership. It tends to encourage creativity, productivity and loyalty.