feeling uneasy about Rolf Harris stuff...

[gettingridiculous]

I feel a bit uneasy about writing this. But something about the reporting of this makes me feel uncomfortable. Firstly, I want to make clear that I am absolutely satisfied with the fact that this man has been brought to trial, tried by a jury and found guilty. The sentence I think is appropriate given that he is approaching the end of his life - 10/20 years ago, I would argue that it would have been too lenient.

But I hate him turning from a man who cried at puppies to this evil villain. I think it distorts the reality and doesn't help people cope with being presented by inappropriate behaviour. I don't think, personally, that he deliberately forged this persona of funny, friendly guy to hide a devious intent to do bad. I think those two sides of his personality just co-existed. Some complex mental capacity enabled him to live a life as a "decent" human being and manage to do those deviant things in a pocket that was compartmentalised and set aside. I accept a certain societal mindset probably legitimised some of his sexist behaviour but the child abuse?

I think the complexity of most abuse cases is that the awful behaviour sprung out of nowhere (in the eyes of the victim), no-one wanted to believe it (victims especially) and it was allowed to continue because no one felt they had the power to deal with it.

Some recent posts about this really chimed with me. How it's exactly the fact that he was a "lovely" man made it all the more shocking. But that's who is responsible for most of abuse - the friendly uncle, the father, the priest, doctor, nun etc,,,,

Saville I think is an abberation in terms of the level of assistance he indavertantly (?) received from the NHS, BBC, church organisations etc...

I think most of the damage is done by people as seemingly "harmless" as Rolf Harris.

Any of this make sense?

Yeah, maybe.

Yes, he will always be at arms length. And if the offences involved children he would never ever see mine. Not because I don't believe in rehabilitation, but just because his right to forgiveness and rehabilitation does not trump my DC's right to safety.

I could let a thief into my home, most possessions can be replaced. I could grow to trust a liar. I could forgive most crimes.

However I could not forgive sexual abuse crimes or murder to me that is unforgivable and I don't think there is a time where I could feel comfortable around that person.

It's very unfashionable to believe in rehabilitation nowadays. There was a kind of golden age (?1960s-70s)of believing in the possibility that everyone should have a chance to change and that most people could change, but it's increasingly unpopular. Dismissed as wishy-washy liberalism.

No. Dismissed because the evidence shows that sex offenders usually don't change. We have learned a lot since the 60's, an awful lot on the dynamics of sex abuse and how it effects perpetrator and victim.
It's wrong to imply as you did that MNers and people in general just like pitchforkin' cause pitchforkin' is so now right now.

Forgiveness is nonsense without remorse being shown. The Catholic Church, bad and all as they are in the area of child protection, is right on that principle at least.

Thing is, a sexual predator and abuser will generally be able to be more successful at grooming, predating and abusing if they are charming, and likeable. If Rolf Harris had no talent or social skills, never washed, wore stained t-shirts covered in ginsters crumbs, and did not have the status of a national treasure, it would presumably have been a great deal easier for the women and girls he abused to a) feel their disgust, shame and terror at his behaviour was legitimate, and b) think they might be believed if they reported him.

But lovely, cuddly, talented Rolf? You must be mistaken, girl.

Kawliga (sp)

Even the small fact that the paedo, friendly uncle Bob, sees that your child will always ask you before taking off with him might be enough to make the paedo think twice. They target vulnerable children, so it's important for children to show that they are not vulnerable, they know how to look after themselves, they will always consult their parent, their parent knows where they are, etc. A paedo will think twice about trying it on with a child whom he can see having open lines of communication with the parent. That's why keeping secrets is so important to paedos when they are grooming kids - they are essentially making the kids feel ok with secrets

Totally agree.

some family members are friendly uncle bob who tends to talk at you - like jimmy Saviile in their own language...its harder to manage people like that because you cant have a proper conversation with them..they may already be physical with the child...tickling them, playing with them. all normal stuff...until one day...

I have told my own DC this to always ask me, even if its someone they know.

I also discouraged the family - buying sweets and saying " its our secret"....for instance GP or DB doing this....I try to drum it in, no secrets..

ArcheryAnnie

we should also remember in amongst the victims who did not want his attentions I am sure there will be plenty of ladies who did consent to trysts with him and who were flattered someone so rich and famous wanted them..

What's that to do with anything, IamSlave?

what has that got to do with the fact that he abused others?

why should we remember that?

It's very confusing to think about. When I was a child I knew a man who was much later found out to be a paedophile rapist and sent to prison. And that's right. He deserved to go to prison. It's curious to think about though because I found him personally inspirational - he was the most extraordinary choir master I've ever met and 25 years later I can still tell when I meet another singer who was trained by him. Part of the reason he was so good was his total affinity for children, though not in the way you'd expect. He took us seriously as people with our own aims and ambitions and was totally unindulgent -really made you feel like you were a serious and talented professional and you worked like anything to impress him. You felt you had the capacity to impress him on your own terms and he would never say it's good "for your age" or anything like that. I mean, you didn't LIKE him. He wasn't at all "nice", but you always felt you had this relationship with him that was quite unlike other adults. Like you were equals, somehow. He wasn't creepy. He was impressive actually. He was probably a genius.

It's absolutely chilling in retrospect. But I've still not at all sorted out how I feel about it or what I can possibly learn from it.

Ha! Arcchery. Your saying why it was easier for him to hide his crimes, I am adding to that by saying YES and of course many women will have found him attractive and been attracted to him if only by his status.

If Rolf Harris had no talent or social skills, never washed, wore stained t-shirts covered in ginsters crumbs, and did not have the status of a national treasure

If we excuse the little things that worry us, the odd feeling or intuition, the looks we are not quite sure we saw, the touch we are not absolutely clear was intentional, is that ok?

I know not. I know that the person who abused me has had many intuitions ignored, many looks dismissed, many actions minimised into 'He's just that type of person'

I find it very difficult to hear the stories of others who suffered his 'oh he's just a bit weird' experiences. Dammit, if you thought he was weird why did you not say so? If he made you feel uncomfortable, why did you not communicate that to someone?

The person who made me feel like a fithy piece of dirt on the floor had numerous complaints made against him by me but it took a man complaining (and possibly my indication of a legal action) before the place I was working in took action.

I know how insidious and sly and difficult to pin down an abusers actions are. That's what they rely on, softly, softly, and plenty of excuses, and even accusations of persecution.

I hate that I feel angry about people not reporting - they are not the perpetrator - but more than anything I hate how much society colludes with abusers, 'You might hurt their reputation', 'What if you have mis-judged the situation', 'I'm sure he's harmless really', 'He's just a bit touchy feely', But he does such good works, it can't be like that', 'It doesn't sound that bad, you're just paranoid', 'No-one else has complained'

And there it is. No one else has complained. Because we are all too frightened to rock the boat. To put ourselves out there and say 'This person made me feel uncomfortable', 'He crossed my boundaries', 'This person is dangerous', 'This person is not safe to be around'

I was not paranoid. I did not exaggerate. All the 'little' things added up to a hideous total. And if anyone had the bloody balls to say that the person that finally was so abusive to me had made them feel uncomfortable, had acted in ways they thought were not right, had crossed their boundaries, then maybe I would not have had to endure his 'attention' on me.

I am so angry that perhaps the above is not as articulate as I would like. In essence I would like us to speak out when we are concerned, because minimising and excusing an abuser, even on 'little' things, only gives them the knowledge that it's ok to abuse as they are doing, and the green light to go further.

But scare who do you complain too? Uncle Harry patted my bottom...who do you tell that too?

Even when an actual crime has been committed or even when something is really suspicious you wont find the police diving into to investigate look at how they treated the man who killed tia sharpe!

Thanks to the many things I've read on mumsnet today I reported something which had been at the back of my mind for many years. I don't know if it will make any difference, since it was 30 years ago, and some details are long gone.

But if it means adding to a catalogue of crimes that build up to an arrest or make some other person feel believed, I'm glad.

That wasn't about this particular thread, it's just over time I read the same messages on mumsnet over and over again, about believing children, and taking the issues seriously.

Sorry to derail the thread. Just wanted to say... thank you. The more it is talked about, and brought into the open... that's got to be a good thing.

So why not Iam ? Why not complain to your boss, to co-workers, to your family, to the police, to the public - 'That just touched me'?

The police might be crap, the social worker might be crap, your friends or family might even be crap but YOU have reported a creep. And potentially stopped him from hurting someone else.

And if you think the response is too little - make a noise about it. I did, and it took a long time for it to be heard. I am not happy that it took a man and legal threat for my concerns to be heard but it was heard.

Thank you are reporting alias. You may have made the world slightly safer for children.

I had an uncle do a minor sexual assault to me when I was 16. I was all for telling his wife. Still think that that was what should have happened. Instead, nothing was done.

aliasjoey I take my hat off to you.

alias, yes we must keep talking about these things and keeping it all open...

you have been utterly brave

I agree sacre, we must start to say something....

I thought a wonderful piece I read recently about not forcing children to kiss people when they didn't want too was wonderful....

My DD great grandma kept chasing her wanting a kiss....she was 4 and stil remembers it at 7....and wont go near her. all the time, kiss kiss. we used to try and reason with DD, come on...its your great granny etc...and feel very embarrased....what I didnt realise was, we were simply falling in with social convention without thinking about it.

then a wonderful article came out saying do not force them to do anything they dont want too.

a weight was lifted, it made sense.

we tell her now, do not kiss anyone you dont want too....its YOUR body.

sorry to waffle but ALL OF THIS all makes up for the women are objects....its all part of the picture...boys of course as well...children...

I just think sacre we think the police can do and will do lots more than they actually do in reality.

Thank you - no doubt the guy is dead or old now,and it didn't really worry me too much; but if it means that the police could now go back to some other woman and say "you know that report you made 15 years ago, well someone else has come forward, we believe you " it has a knock-on effect - she supports her kids to speak out; the police make another link in the chain...

Sorry, I'm waffling. I just think that the more people speak up, as a society we become less blind to it

I agree Iam and alias the police/courts may have done less than necessary in the past, and still perhaps less than we want now, but speaking out, being outraged & vocal about abuse will help.

The very simple, but unbelievably powerful, sentiment of 'We believe you' is key, having your concerns minimised & dismissed is like being abused all over again.

As you say alias even years later that validation (though christ knows why we should need it) can help the healing process. We didn't over react, we didn't get the wrong idea, our feelings were, and are, valid and right. Our body is ours alone.

I have reported a nursing home to social services. They were interested, and the home has been subject to investigation by the useless CQC, which has a discreet two line note about it when you access its review of the home. However, none of the residents' relatives have been informed about this, that the home is being looked into. They/we are kept in the dark until the individuals decide to come forward, it's all very tight lipped.

So I can imagine how it feels if someone has been told they're not the only one to have complained about a sexual assault, it frees you up.