feeling uneasy about Rolf Harris stuff...

[gettingridiculous]

I feel a bit uneasy about writing this. But something about the reporting of this makes me feel uncomfortable. Firstly, I want to make clear that I am absolutely satisfied with the fact that this man has been brought to trial, tried by a jury and found guilty. The sentence I think is appropriate given that he is approaching the end of his life - 10/20 years ago, I would argue that it would have been too lenient.

But I hate him turning from a man who cried at puppies to this evil villain. I think it distorts the reality and doesn't help people cope with being presented by inappropriate behaviour. I don't think, personally, that he deliberately forged this persona of funny, friendly guy to hide a devious intent to do bad. I think those two sides of his personality just co-existed. Some complex mental capacity enabled him to live a life as a "decent" human being and manage to do those deviant things in a pocket that was compartmentalised and set aside. I accept a certain societal mindset probably legitimised some of his sexist behaviour but the child abuse?

I think the complexity of most abuse cases is that the awful behaviour sprung out of nowhere (in the eyes of the victim), no-one wanted to believe it (victims especially) and it was allowed to continue because no one felt they had the power to deal with it.

Some recent posts about this really chimed with me. How it's exactly the fact that he was a "lovely" man made it all the more shocking. But that's who is responsible for most of abuse - the friendly uncle, the father, the priest, doctor, nun etc,,,,

Saville I think is an abberation in terms of the level of assistance he indavertantly (?) received from the NHS, BBC, church organisations etc...

I think most of the damage is done by people as seemingly "harmless" as Rolf Harris.

Any of this make sense?

Don't you find it odd that so many paedophiles seem to go out of their way to be seen to be doing good works? Rolf Harris and Jimmy Savile both even made videos for children about how to deal with any unwanted touching by adults. Stomach churning stuff...
Where I live the Mayor was convicted of having 400,000 images and videos of children, all carefully filed and catalogued by theme. Some were of the most serious category.

I suspect that with pedophiles it becomes an addiction, a compulsion, and they get a thrill out of fooling people and getting away with it.

Acting on the urges feeds them and the urges grow.

The good guy persona becomes essential because it allows them to get away with the abuse.

I've known 4 paedophiles and 2 of them definitely gave me the creeps for years before they were found out. One exposed himself to me when I was 16 then went on years later to be convicted of having sex with a 9 year old and grooming children as young as 2. With the glorious benefit of hindsight I wish I'd gone to the police - maybe he would've got some help before he started harming children. He didn't harm me - I treated it as a bit of a joke at the time - sniggering about it with my friends. Then 30 years later I only found out what happened subsequently when a mutual friend had a visit from police and social services because her child was on the at risk register because of having contact with this man.

It's all horribly upsetting.
Are they all at it? I sometimes think that men should not be able to roam freely among us (and I'm married, I know that statement sounds outrageous)
I mean, I don't care about the other "good work" an abuser might have done. For me, their abuse does negate their good deeds.
What's scary is that this is how ppl are. All ppl. Their "good" and "bad" sides do coexist so it's impossible to identify them IYSWIM.
Listen, listen, listen. And believe, when children speak to you about these things.
And maybe teach your kids (ESP your daughters) that if someone touches them inappropriately they should hit them hard enough to leave a mark so that "uncle Rolf-has to explain why he's got a massive bruise rather than expecting the girl to disclose to someone only to be told they're mistaken, or lying, or not important enough to be listened to--

May they rot in hell.

It angers me so much. I'll have start hiding these threads. The fact that there's so much abuse, so many images of children being harmed that men are making and looking at and.....l it's so horribly upsetting.
What the fuck is wrong with them? And just a tiny handful of these men have been brought to justice. Shit, they're everywhere.

It's actually even more of a minefield because most people with linited experience always - always - talk about children being scared or worried. And they look for their child being wary or upset.

A child small enough, who is being groomed, will quite probably thoroughly like their abuser - may even opt to spend time with them.

It's an adult view of abuse that places fear and horror on the abuse. A small child doesn't know any different and may even enjoy the contact initially. It's why so many victims feel such awful shame.
It is age and understanding that brings the horror and revulsion.

I should of course add the obvious - I'm speaking of children who are groomed when small or very vulnerable and not the children who are scared and threatened.

I know people who worked with RH and he was known to be an unpleasant person - definitely a forged 'nice guy' persona. His celebrity enabled him to carry out sexual abuse - it gave him power and access, he gained access to children because of the image he presented of himself, similar to a doctor/teacher/priest/police officer who abuses - you can gain trust by the way you are perceived because of your job.

I don't think age is of any relevance when sentencing someone, I don;t believe you should get a lesser sentence because you are old, you have still done the same amount of damage, you have still wrecked lives. Why should someone get a reduced sentence because they have managed to evade the law for so long? He's bloody lucky managed to have lived his life free for 80+ years, the people he has damaged and abused will never have that freedom from the sentence he imposed on them.

I take your point about abuse coming from apparently 'nice' people, and I think it is an important point to make. I'm not convinced it was the case with RH.

As an additional point, a member of my family used to work in prisons(in education), and without exception he said those convicted of sexual abuse were cunning, nasty and extremely manipulative people. Applying for a job in a specific sexual offender prison he was told its a job no one should do for more than about 2 years max, as dealing with people who are so manipulative is deeply unsettling and potentially damaging for those who work with them.

It does make me feel as if a majority of men are inherently sexually predatory Therealamanda :(

That's very interesting Kurri

And when some ppl are released from prison, they're protected.
They've""done their time" their families (wives) either believe in their "innocence" or find some other way of smoothing the shit out in their minds in order to carry on living with them. So they continue to spread doubt about the issue and to be a risk. The restrictions on them are minimal IMHO.

I think Germaine Greer once said that paedophiles should be painted purple. So that they could be identified. And if they were to never reoffend (does that happen?) over time, gradually, the Paint would fade, so I guess you'd be able to judge the timing of their last offence.
She might have been talking about offenders rather than ppl who "just" (yuck) have a "preference" for children personally I struggle with that idea but her words stuck with me.

I agree with you OP and my personal experience has taught me this too.

At large we cope with thinking child abusers are hideous and visible. IME they are not. They could be that personable affable charming person in you life, at work, on bus in community. wherever.

That there is no way of knowing or identifying them is horrifying.

Well abusers dont think they are doing anything wrong toughing a 15yr old in a pub wasnt on his mind when he was crying over dead dogs . He thought the groping was fun and the girls liked it, it is difficult though to get your head around

But he knew the child porn images he was hiding were wrong?

Yeah I suppose becool but padophilles dont sit and look at images all day they go to work etc etcRH fooled us with his persona its chilling to think about

Surely dont teach your children to hurt their abusers unless they are literally trying to get out of their grip?
I expect that could escalate into something even more nasty

I've said this on another thread, the scales fell from my eyes in the early nineties when I saw RH perform at the Womad festival.
There were hundreds of small children brought along by their parents to see him. They were sat very visibly right in front of the stage in broad daylight (my DCs among them).

From the outset RH was effing and blinding and took great delight in using offensive language in front of the kids.

It seemed that without the BBC cameras to restrain him, he had no boundaries. I realised then that he was a horrible person, and took my DCs away, I was horrified.

His sense of entitlement was tangible and I've no doubt that his ensuing tv career was a pisstake where he enjoyed duping the public into believing that he was just a bunny hugger. He was probably laughing all the way to the bank.

I think the media like to portray people as 100% good or 100% bad.

I don't believe anyone is 100% anything.

Myra Hindley showed an emotional response to her dog dieing while the police were gathering evidence against her for a murder charge.

If you were told about a young woman being questioned by police and the police killing her dog during questioning you may well feel pity, but I bet you didn't feel pity when you read the name.

It is normal for humans to have empathy and I think that is what the shock is, we have empathised with Harris' crying at a puppy, but then we find out something that is so incomprehensible to us that we can't empathise and that is the problem.

If you find out the bad thing first the 'non empathy' bit of your brain / emotion (not explaining well) kicks in and stops any empathy.

We feel tricked, we are conditioned to think we would notice, would know, can tell somehow, but in truth we cant.

I know that statement sounds outrageous

No, just stupid, offensive and misandrist.

A man dh knew ws paying a 15yr old boy for sex the man ran a hobby club dh went to we were all horrified as he was such a nice man I guess they manage to slot themselves into society and function while lying and manipulation

Yes I see that composhat
Which is why I Said "outrageous".
The vast majority of abuse is committed by men.
It does make me wonder why were expected to trust men as much as women.

What I find deplorable, and that needs to change asap, is that we, as a society, find excuses to avoid taking action when concerns are raised.

Maybe we might be embarrassed about saying what we feel about another person's actions

Maybe feelings/concerns about another persons behaviour cannot be 'pinned down' to a 'serious' action so lots of apparently 'less serious' incidents are written off

As an adult I experienced numerous incidents with another adult, through work, that made me not only very uncomfortable, but also panicked and distressed me and affected my ability to carry out my work in the way I would normally

I made numerous complaints about his behaviour, complaints which, I feel, were minimised and ignored.

I was put in a deplorable situation and had to turn down work because my concerns were not taken seriously.

Action was only taken when the combination of my making an accusation of failing to provide a safe working environment coincided with a man making a complaint about the person was made.

The situation has/is being dealt with now but has left me feeling that some people think it's ok to ignore repeated worrying behaviour rather than acknowledging that repeated 'low level' bad behaviour sets a pattern that should be addressed in and of itself, without waiting around for a serious incident to occur

Some people push the boundaries of acceptability and imo should be clearly dealt with at the earliest possible time.

I, thankfully, no longer have to endure the hideous behaviour I was expected to just put up with, but I am left with the thought that this person has had his previous behaviour condoned and so may feel entitled to repeat it with someone else in the future.

We like to deal in black and white, good and evil, without considering that, if we allow a person to get away with despicable behaviour at a low level, they may feel entitled to repeat it, and go further, the next time.

And it matters not a jot that a person has completed good works elsewhere if they believe themselves entitled to hurt another human being in, what they might consider, their private life.

Perpetrated by a tiny minority of men. It ia like saying women are disproportionately likely to shoplift so we shouldn't trust any woman in a shop.

Anyway from working as a social work assistant, female involvement in sex offences isn't a complete rarity. Along with one person who was in care after sexual abuse by their own mother as a toddler, there were cases of women trading teenage daughters to 'friends' in exchange for booze or drugs, deciding they'd like another child after a hysterectomy and encouraging their new partner to get her teenage daughter pregnant instead. Alomg with other categories of abuse committed by mothers such as using children to distribute drugs abd using their children for a weird vodoo ritual.

We mustn't be anti-man. We mustn't think 'most abusers are men' therefore 'most men are abusers'. We take sensible steps (with both sexes) such as having safe guarding policies, we stay attentive but we also trust. If not we'd be paranoid and insult the majority of men, who aren't abusers.

This won't be a popular opinion, but I'm a Christian and this concept of a person having both badness and goodness in them I think is so true. I'd call it sin, which I'd ultimately define as putting yourself above anyone else. It can be so deceptive and slimy.

I think people often wrongly believe that your good weighs up against your bad and I wonder whether people like RH believe his 'good deeds' somehow balances out his crimes.

It doesn't work that way though, in our human sense of justice nor in my Christian beliefs. I believe God died in human Jesus form which shows sin is deadly serious - literally - if the penalty God did was death.

That doesn't mean I want to kill RH, by the way. I might like to punch him...but that's besides the point! But in a way it just makes sense that people long to be 'good' and think of themselves as good people while there is also badness in us too - of whatever kind.

I don't think manipulative sexual predators long to be good.

i have read evidence that paedophilia is NOT simply a sexual attraction towards children; it is not another side of sexuality, as an earlier poster put it (although I am paraphrasing, so apologies if I've got his/her comment slightly wrong). Paedophiles are individuals who appear to ENJOY hurting and humiliating children, and almost overwhelmingly have been abused themselves and want other children to suffer. They are true sadists and for me that makes a huge difference to how I view them.