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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to think the 'common law/freeman on the land' thing is a whole load of bollocks?

794 replies

qwertypop · 01/06/2014 20:10

I've come across a few people over the last few years that take it very seriously and bang on at length about how the police and courts have no authority over them as they are self declared 'freemen'. Something to do with common law being the only true law in Britain, I think? And not having to wear bike helmets or pay for TV licenses or repay your debts also seem important to the ones I've had the dubious pleasure of meeting.

A couple I met at the weekend have taken the biscuit though and not registered their baby's birth because apparently this will mean said baby grows up to be a 'freeman' (she's actually a girl but the term appears to be freeman anyway). They believe quite firmly that to register her birth will mean that the law assumes her and her name (which is a fucking corker, of course) are one and the same and that only by NOT registering her birth can she be free to be a human being. Quite what this actually means is a mystery to me and tbh the mumbo jumbo they gave me by way of an answer leads me to suspect they don't really know either Hmm

I've tried to read up on it but all the info I can find is written in a style you'd expect of an paranoid, delusional, and possibly hallucinating chimpanzee let loose with a legal dictionary.

So AIBU to think this is bollocky woo of the most fucking ridiculous type? Or is someone going to come along and actually enlighten me as to wtf its all about, preferably in plain English with no pseudo-legalese?

OP posts:
LisaMed · 04/06/2014 11:21

Spero - that is incredibly flattering but I couldn't cope with anything degree level. I was thinking of trying to volunteer in the CAB as I believe they give training. All my knowledge is out of date.

Spero · 04/06/2014 11:28

Lisa, from what I read on this thread you have more intelligence and common sense that a good proportion of lawyers I meet.

Definitely think about CAB or similar if its an area of interest - we urgently need sensible people at every level; another scarey thing happening is that along with mushrooming Freemen loonies is a growth in (entirely unregulated) McKenzie friends - i.e. the people who help litigants in person in court.

Some of them are excellent but others are just Freeman in disguise and out to exploit the vulnerable with magic beans and crack.

I love you, rational wiki.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 04/06/2014 11:33

Ooh, that link is really cool, flora.

HilfskreuzerMowe · 04/06/2014 13:00

Thanks for the welcome everyone!

On this side of the globe it's (almost) time for me to head to work, but I thought I'd whip off a quick reply on a few points and answer in more length a little later today.

Spero: I quickly reviewed your "Myth Busting" information page and it looks very good to me. I'll re-read it carefully and see if I have further suggestions.

nomorequotes: On the Canadian experience: we are now on the tail end of 'wave three' of this kind of litigation - but the first two focussed mainly on denial of income tax obligation, so they didn't affect the courts as a whole. The Freeman-on-the-Land anti-government perspective is much broader, and so has been their interaction with the courts.

The initial response from the judges was to evaluate whether or not Freemen are mentally ill. They can seem that way at a glance since they speak in such a strange, formalized way in court, and with their essentially ritualistic use of documentation and 'ceremonies'. Not too long ago a couple Canadian psychiatrists wrote on the result of court-ordered assessments of Freemen litigants: Jennifer Pytyck & Gary A. Chaimowitz, "The Sovereign Citizen Movement and Fitness to Stand Trial", (2013) International Journal of Forensic Mental Health, 12:2.

I think this paper is a very good assessment and observes that Freeman belief mimics psychotic behavior - but it is instead a form of highly marginal political belief re-enforced in small fringe peer groups. I think that conclusion is dead on the mark. Unfortunately I think that paper has 'subscription only' access online, but for anyone with a professional interest in the subject I recommend it.

The second big 'ah-ha' for the courts was to recognize this is a large-scale phenomenon, and not just an 'isolated nut who read something on the Internet'. In fact, a very large number of cases had been heard and tried before a judge took the time to assemble a profile and background of these people. That resulted in the Meads v. Meads decision that was linked above. Meads caused a major shift because it was the first time Freemen and related groups were described in detail, revealed to be a commercial product flogged by 'gurus', and it provided a global response to these schemes. They never did work, but now it's easy for judges and lawyers to categorize these strange ideas and offer a legal answer.

Now the movement was well understood by the courts - the question became how to manage it. Judges are trained to be very careful with self-represented litigants to ensure their submissions are scrutinized for valid arguments and issues. That was a tough project when you have a litigant babbling what kind of sounds like law and what kind of sounds like gibberish. Post-Meads it was became much easier to do that screening process, and there are some wonderfully neat judgments that illustrate this process.

Fans of Lord Denning might enjoy this one:

R. v. Duncan, 2013 ONCJ 160 (canlii.ca/t/fwsm0)

So things are now pretty well in hand in court. Freemen arrive, do their little song and dance, and fail. Security is wise to them and so their in-court disruptions are kept under control. The judges generally know what to expect. I think now, post-Meads, most of the Freemen expect to fail in court. They've watched their peers do that, over and over, their gurus cannot answer the legal arguments against Freeman ideas, and for the holdouts it's as though they have too much invested to let go. This is a land of cognitive dissonance.

One of the most important lessons learned was how valuable it is to provide written court decisions that then form a body of law to refute unusual arguments. The Meads decision doesn't really invent too much - it simply collects and integrates into a single reference well over a decade of written judgments and their principles. All that case law then provided a firm foundation to answer pretty much any Freeman-type scheme. Since Meads there have been a steady stream of detailed, analytical written reasons that examine and pull apart additional variations on Freeman strategies, and then record that failure for the public to review.

A funny thing about Freeman-type litigants is that they are obsessed with law, and so they are some of the very few laypersons who will voluntarily study and scrutinize judgments. Confronting that community and its gurus with clear analysis was devastating. It provided a counter-voice to their own internal peer-group based dialogue - particularly when that was backed up by repeated in-court failure.

Another valuable response has come from the public. In North America there are a number of 'hobbyist groups' who monitor and study these people. (Sadly, to date our legal academics have been all but useless and have added nothing to our understanding or response to these people.) The forum I mentioned previously, Quatloos, is I think now the leading group of that kind. We track gurus, litigation, and try to provide a repository for data to build a history that can be referenced and used to challenge and respond to these strange ideas. Sometimes the gurus themselves venture into the 'heart of darkness' and take us on in debate.

We're watched very closely within the Freemen communities - our function is much like a ideologically opposite media resource. In my own activities I am careful to provide sources and cite case law. This is another difficult challenge for the gurus.

(And we're a kind of snarky source for the type of peer gossip the Freemen themselves find interesting!)

One last note on the progression in Canada - for a very, very long time the Freemen were a total mystery to the general public. No one had heard of them. Then in the last couple years we have had high profile decisions like Meads, and some very interesting incidents that were the subject of significant media reporting. This guy in particular (www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=9463). The Freemen expected they would be welcomed as saviors by the Canadian public - here was the answer to all that government, corporate, bank, and Cabal tyranny!

Instead the Canadian public hated them. The response was overwhelming. No one was sympathetic to these "Freeloaders-on-the-Land". The Freeman community is still trying to come to terms with the sudden realization that they may not be the leading edge of a mass movement. Now, many average Canadians have a general idea of who these people are, what they believe and try to do. The Freemen are viewed with scorn or as a kind of bad joke. I expect this education may help 'immunize' our population against further infections by these parasite memes.

I'll end it there for now but later today I will share data on our experience with Freemen in the family law context.

All the best!

SMS Möwe

TillyTellTale · 04/06/2014 13:11

LisaMed I just wanted to assure you that you could manage A-level Law easily. I'm certain of it, as I have both taken that course, and read your posts.

Grin
Shedding · 04/06/2014 13:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Spero · 04/06/2014 13:33

SMS Mowe - would you be ok if I cut and pasted your last post into a post for the CPR site? That is really interesting and I hope where Canada has lead, we will follow.... I can link to your other posts, I think the more access to the other arguments the better.

Or if you want to do a full on guest post, that would be wonderful.

DenzelWashington · 04/06/2014 13:35

Thanks SMS Mowe, it's fascinating stuff.

Meads v Meads (I followed a link from your blog page, has it in a nutshell:

"This fact is why the majority of OPCA arguments can never succeed. There is always a court, though perhaps not this one, that has jurisdiction over these litigants and their activities. They cannot opt out. All arguments that invoke ‘immunity’ and indeed any schemes that claim a person can possess or acquire a status that allows them to ignore court authority are incorrect in law. I note this authority is a phenomenon that flows from the historical development of constitutional government, and is therefore an aspect of the common law so often stressed by OPCA litigants and gurus."

ChelsyHandy · 04/06/2014 14:15

composhat I watched that series on parking disputes that was BBC One a few weeks back (I spent much of the programme yelling 'you don't have a bloody divine right to park outside your own house' and 'if you don't want a ticket, don't park on a double yellow' but I digress) and someone having exhausted the 'street signs weren't clear' 'I was only 5 minutes' angles tried the 'as a freeman on the land' bullshit. I don't think they actually believed it, but had just googled 'how to get out of parking fines' and this had come up

Bit ironic, since servitudes originally developed out of common law and/or Roman law and have never recognised the right of parking a vehicle, whether a horse and cart or a motorised one!

SolidGoldBrass · 04/06/2014 14:40

It's good to share information about these whangers and how they shouldn't be taken seriously, but I don't think banning them would work. There have always been con-artists and assorted whackos peddling assorted kinds of Truth-which-is-bullshit, and if the Government of any country tried to prohibit the Freeloaders they would, on the same grounds, have to prohibit pick-up artists, get-rich-quick Forex-trading pushers, most slimming 'gurus' and every fucking medium in existence.

ouryve · 04/06/2014 14:48

I was reading about this on the bus, earlier. Do you have to provide your own tin foil hats if you want to become a Freeman?

Spero · 04/06/2014 14:48

I have amended the CPR post to include reference to the Journal of Forensic Psychiatry article as that is very interesting - you have to pay to download the whole article, but the abstract is there. Is £24 and I am seriously tempted!

i am not sure that anyone in the UK is looking at this from a psychiatric perspective, or if they are I don't know about it. But I think it would be very interesting. Certainly the way that they present their arguments and websites suggests to me at least that they think in quite a distinctive way and appear to be able to twist reality to suit their arguments.

I know that we all do that to some extent, but the stuff I am reading is really quite extreme.

An interesting debate perhaps about the parameters of the mental health debate. Who gets to decide what kind of socio-political views are 'normal' and which are so far out of whack with reality that you could end up labeled psychotic?

ChelsyHandy · 04/06/2014 15:27

Asking for psychological reports is quite common in the courts though, and prevents future appeal on various grounds.

Perhaps some low level form of social anxiety/anti-social personality disorder, as opposed to psychosis?

Spero · 04/06/2014 15:49

But I can only get psychological report in a family court IF the person to be assessed consents and will pay for it - unless it is care proceedings, and then it is paid for on all parties publicly funded certificates.

But the test for public funding to be used is 'necessity' so i am not sure a judge would order one just to find out if a party was being led astray by the Freeman movement.

I think it is different in criminal proceedings where mental health assessments are part of sentencing i think?

And i imagine in civil courts you can't just get routine psych assessments unless people consent and pay.

Spero · 04/06/2014 15:50

My understanding of 'psychosis' is that it means 'delusional' , so you make decisions based on things which don't exist. That would certainly seem to apply to some of the more florid arguments I have seen on these websites.

MiniTheMinx · 04/06/2014 15:59

I think its extremely dangerous to think in terms of dissenting opinion as psychopathology.

Of course there have always been people who's views have been at variance with social norms, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Hubbard, Freud, Spinoza, Plato, Marx...the list continues.

DenzelWashington · 04/06/2014 16:00

I agree with Mini. And the Canadian case I referred to earlier deals with this. The judge says that these people sound mad because they are spouting insane drivel they got off the internet, but aren't actually mad.

MiniTheMinx · 04/06/2014 16:03

Yes, my understanding of psychosis is delusional, but by this I would assume a distinction needs to be made, delusional to a psychiatrist is a label that covers other descriptives, symptoms etc, delusional to you and me, might mean that one persons perspective on reality is at odds with our own.

Spero · 04/06/2014 16:11

But if you come to court spouting 'insane drivel' you can see why you run a risk that a court may think you are 'mad' or at least not fit to participate.

I agree it is 'dangerous' in the sense that it can be used by the state as a means to shut people up they find troublesome, but its still a troubling issue as I worry quite a lot about some of the people I meet in family courts, as I am not sure that they are mentally stable enough to be participating in such proceedings and to make the right decisions.

But again this is about the limits of paternalism isn't it? If someone really wants to refuse to sit down in court and won't cross examine witnesses as this would mean they were entering into a contract (??) who am I to try and stop them?

Or do we owe a duty to the vulnerable to make decisions on their behalf?

I guess as ever, the issue is where do you draw the line. Some people will very clearly not be able to participate and thus I assume would be sectioned under the MHA. Its the grey area of the vulnerable who are being exploited that is worrying me.

ouryve · 04/06/2014 16:18

People with psychosis are delusional, but not all delusional people are psychotic - which is just as well or else anyone with any sort of religious belief may be accused of being psychotic by anyone who doesn't share that belief. The same accusations could be said of people with differing political beliefs.

DenzelWashington · 04/06/2014 16:21

Ultimately it is not the job of the court to change the freeman litigant's belief about what the law is, though. I suppose a judge and a legal system will always want to operate with the trust and consent of litigants, but if that isn't possible the court just moves to enforce what it has decided despite that person withholding consent.

Presumably if the case were important enough and the litigant really barmy, the court would appoint an amicus to argue the points the litigant should be taking?

Spero · 04/06/2014 16:21

What then determines a diagnosis of psychosis? Do delusions persist over many domains of functioning - i.e. not just with regard to your legal proceedings. Do you have to hear voices/ see things that aren't there?

Is it largely down to the subjective diagnosis of each individual psychiatrist?

I know there are lots of 'characteristics' they have to find to make diagnoses of various conditions, but isn't the identifying of the characteristic quite a subjective exercise? Or is it all done on questionnaires?

I am quite ignorant about this I realise and feel I need to know more as I often deal with clients who are subject to psychiatric or psychological assessments.

DenzelWashington · 04/06/2014 16:25

Delusions can be very specific though. It might be people could be very high functioning except in relation to a narrow thing that they have delusions about.

Spero · 04/06/2014 16:28

So would persistent and serious delusions about just one area of your life (such as your attitude to legal proceedings) ever be enough to attract a mental health diagnosis?

MiniTheMinx · 04/06/2014 16:33

It seems there is an issue with people who are socially and economically marginal to the mainstream being conned. I think it would be quite wrong to pathologise the anti-social behaviour of people from marginalised groups. It would be like taking the DSM into Kenya and trying to diagnose a witch doctor with schizophrenia.