Are we BU to BIL/SIL?

[iamsoannoyed]

My DH and his DB jointly took over the family farm when FIL retired.

DH and BIL (DH's DB) have always worked the farm, but when FIL retired he signed it over to them, and they originally split the work 50/50. PIL, DH and BIL reach receive 1/3 of the income of the from the farm (and when PIL pass away, this will increase to 1/2 each).

SIL has health problems, which she has had for a long-time, but has progressed more rapidly over the last 2 years. They have 6 children. Over that time BIL has had to spend more time looking after the children and his wife, which has meant my DH taking over more and more of the work.

This has progressed to the point that it really has become too much for DH to do on his own (we have 1 permanent farm worker and get in another seasonal one). He has been really exhausted last 6 months or so, but it has all been getting on top of him over the last month. He is tired all the time, has no energy to do things with me or the children and so on. BIL now only works sporadically, and frequently has to cancel even when he has agreed to help.

While we totally understand that this isn't anyones fault, and it's not because he doesn't want to work, that doesn't change the impact it is having on DH, and also upon our family life.

We had a long chat about it a few weeks ago, and agreed things can't go on as they are. DH suggested to his DB that we employ another farmworker- FIL thinks this is a good solution, and thought that DB should pay slightly more towards the cost than the rest by slightly reducing the amount he takes out in income. We put this to DB- he flatly refused. We then said we would just share the cost between us all, and all take a little less. DB said no, they couldn't afford to this and if we wanted to take on extra help, we can pay for it. He has also been asking if we can cut expenditure to take more profit out of the business. It can't be done without cutting corners, which DH doesn't want to do and FIL thinks would be foolish.

I am really cross about it- his situation and inability to contribute to the work of the farm is why they need to take on the extra help. It's not his fault, but he is getting an income without actually doing work. DH is really hurt that his DB doesn't seem to care about the impact the situation is having on us.

DH thought it might be a better idea if we bought out BIL share in the farm- that way he'd have cash which he could invest etc and use that to have an income, and DH could run the business the way he wants to. DB has refused this too.

DH and I think the best solution may be either for BIL to buy us out, and we can set up elsewhere or that they sell the farm and we each take our share.

PIL are really upset by this, and FIL in particular feels like he's failed as the farm has been in the family for generations.

BIL says we are trying to punish him for not working, and feels we don't care about him and his family.

I know it would be far better from his point of view if we all just carried on as we are, but from our point of view this is untenable. If it would be for a set period of time (i.e. a few months or a year or so), then it might be different- they are family and we do want to help, but it is not a situation that is going to improve in the forsee-able future. I am not prepared to help out to the extent that it affects my husband's welfare and our family.

His lack of flexibility suggests to me that even if we get over this, sooner or later another problem will raise it's head (e.g. him pushing for cost cutting measures), and perhaps it would be better in the longer term if we went our separate ways. Initially there would be bruised feelings, but I think it's better than long term resentment.

Are we BU to try to force through a change?

I've been thinking back over this, and about some comments made earlier on the thread, about the farming mentality's being different, so perhaps my answer yesterday - seeing the farm in classical capitalist terms - seemed inappropriate... and then thought, the perspective of a non-farmer could well be his future.

Actually, do you think he has ceased to feel like a farmer? I'm very sorry to mention this, but if his wife were to die today, after a period of mourning, would he be "back"?

Your BIL has a very entitled attitude - thinking he's entitled to the same (any!) wage as his brother who is working so hard to keep the family business going.

I think fil needs to rethink his will. Unwell SIL aside... The BIL is not a canny business man and doesn't seem interested in the business anyhow.

Even if we get this sorted out, I feel sooner or later the fact that DH and BIL have very different ideas about how the business should be run will rear it's ugly head again

I believe you're almost certainly right; I'm also sorry to say that BIL's commitment to any option will perhaps only be a stepping stone to getting what he wants - at least in his own mind

Sadly, I really believe that DH and FIL will have to impose a solution in the end; as you said, maintaining the status quo isn't an option and since BIL doesn't want any change at all, it's hard to see how further delay can help anyone

1. each person takes a wage for the work they do, and all "share-holders" then take a reduced income from the profits. This would allow us to employ extra people as necessary to cover BIL's absence with minimal impact upon the business or our income. It would slightly reduce PIL, as FIL works sporadically/part-time, essentially. It would significantly reduce BIL income if he did not work. This is the most financially sensible according to advisor.

What happens if BIL pleads hardship and demands payments ad hoc?

2. The business employs workers as required and pay them a wage (but DH/BIL/FIL would not count in this)- this is worked into the running costs of the business and our income would come out of profits.

Ditto

3. BIL comes back to work and they employ someone in a carer/assistant. This would be part-funded between the local council and BIL/SIL.

What happens if BIL doesn't come to work, or works much less than he should as at present?

4. One or other of the brothers buys the other out, or the farm is sold and the money split.

Guarantees certainty but also a possibly permanent rift with BIL and SIL

I think you may be heading for rift territory whatever you choose, so perhaps best to get it over with? BIL is being unfair, and effectively choosing an unspoken option 5), namely the status quo, no work but increasing income. I suspect this is mostly to do with the situation with SIL but also to do with resentment over how FIL has structured the inheritance.

Unless you feel BIL will fairly and properly commit to whatever is decided, it has to be option 4.

Superb post, Denzel

Ooh, ta.

We're not in this situation, but I have a relapsing/remitting disease similar to ms, and dh is a GP.

In the end he's decided that either salaried work or single-handed sole partnership, employing salaried docs/locums as required, is the way to go. He's been in a sole partner practice with a salaried assistant for just over a year.

This is so because if I am seriously ill he can be flexible - buy in extra cover, work different hours etc, without putting pressure on other partners.

And having a PA is actually brilliant. Like a previous poster mentioned, that's what DLA is for! At the moment I have 6 hours a week - she doesn't do intimate care but will help with personal stuff (hair washing while my leg was been broken, for example), cleans, irons, helps with writing/form filling for school, cooks if need be. We regard her very much as one of the family. I appreciate that some people are very private and this isn't going to suit everyone but I've had to decide to just have a robust attitude and get the care I need, that the family needs, to survive.

How much, given that their children are all in school, is this them holding on to each other, spending time together? Secondary progressive ms is so awful, that they might be being with each other while they can.

Clearly, though, this is no excuse and things have to change. Your poor dh sounds like he's been a real saint in it all. Securing a comfortable and sustainable future for all the families involved has to be priority. But I don't need to tell you that ....

Thinking of you all x

Thanks weegiemum. I don't envy SIL, it is a terrible disease and she is suffering. I think she is really loathe to have a stranger in her home as she feels so vulnerable. Sooner or later though, whatever we decide to do as regards the farm, she will need help and she and BIL are going to have to find a way to come to terms with that.

Denzel: I agree, a rift is coming as BIL is not committed to any change at all. I feel we (especially DH) have bent over backwards to help them out and come up with a solution that is acceptable to us all and keeps the business on a stable footing, but that they are not even trying to meet us half way. On that basis, I am less and less inclined to keep trying to be "nice" and I think we may be better buying him out, if he'll agree.

BIL phoned this afternoon and they had an argument. BIL feels he is being sidelined and PIL are "favouring" us, and he thinks this is typical as DH is FIL "favourite". I don't think this is fair, but I suspect it is how he feels at the moment, as FIL is on DH's "side".

I spoke to DH and FIL about giving shares back to FIL- enough to give a casting vote. They are going to discuss this with BIL and also give him 24 hours to come up with an answer as to how we move forward.

MIL told me this evening that she thinks it may be best if DH and I bought out BIL, as she is really upset by the way he has behaved towards DH and FIL, and worried that he cannot see the imperitive of keeping the business in good shape. She thinks he has no regard for all the hard-work his father has put in to leave his sons a decent livelihood.

I think this whole episode is going to cause a great deal of hurt all round.

the carer doesn't have to be a stranger. The local authority will give them a 'direct payment' (a cash sum paid monthly) and they can employ whoever they like to provide care/ cleaning/ childcare etc. So a friend of SILs or a relative. They would get to choose, who, when and what tasks were completed.

Have the LA actually been out to do an assessment yet?

Well, it's interesting that MIL thinks the same way too; sadly it seems the only one who isn't thinking constructively is BIL, and I doubt that claiming "favourites" is going to help

I very much admire the idea of giving him 24 hours to suggest an alternative - but what have the others decided to do if/when he has no real suggestions to make?

Completely aside from the business issue, I wonder would your sil and Bil benefit from one of the many fantastic ms charities/support groups? Just to talk them through what lies ahead from a less medical and more personal point?

A lot of support groups have others who have faced the carer issue and can advise from a personal point which from your doctor role particularly you will see as different. I might be that they need someone who has been there.

They sound like they are struggling with here illness to be able to see clearly?

Westmoreland,

No, LA haven't been out as SIL has flatly refused to consider having anyone, so she doesn't see the point of having anyone assess. BIL sort of shrugs his shoulders and says it's up to her.

I have tried to explain that they would decide who would they would employ, they wouldn't be allocated someone by the LA and it wouldn't be a case of different people every day.

If it was put to her as 'mum/sil/friend/cousin could be paid by the govt to provide care for you' would that be more palatable to her? Equally could it be offered as a 'bribe' to them... SIL accepts a referral to adult social care to see what help they can offer and you suspend any decision making about the future of the farm until they have been out and assessed? Even if BIL gets a 'carer's assessment' they might still get a budget they can use.

Out of interest what would SIL's income/ savings roughly be? Below £24k and she will be entitled to govt funding.

westmoreland

i haven't tried putting it that way- although I'm not sure who would be available (but that would be up to her). Worth a try!

I don't know what SIL savings would be- although I understood it was based on combined income and savings of the couple, not just the individual effected. Am I wrong?

I know BIL's income is greater than £24k. No idea about savings though.

www.cumbria.gov.uk/elibrary/Content/Internet/327/6547/41383141429.pdf

if you type 'charges for non residential services for xxx local authority' into google it will tell you what their charging policy is. I have included cumbria's above as that is where I am.

Basically a person's entitlement to UK benefits are assessed as a couple but their entitlement to social care funding is assessed as an individual UNLESS the partner is in receipt of benefits claimed as a couple or the couple have joint savings. The value of the house etc can't be taken into account for home care.

The national guidance on fair charging for non residential social care services is available here. www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/208323/Fairer_Charging_Guidance_final_2013-06-20_rc.pdf

If you search in it for 'couples' you will get a lot of the answers.

Essentially they will not know what they are eligible for and what they will have to pay until they have an assessment. They may be pleasantly surprised.

Could it be offered as a 'bribe' to them... SIL accepts a referral to adult social care ... and you suspend any decision making about the future of the farm until they have been out and assessed?

It's a fair point, but isn't there a danger that they'd simply use this as a method of putting off the inevitable? After all, an assessment doesn't actually oblige them to do anything

It seems to me that the longer this goes on, the more resentment will build up - and it's already been an issue for five years. Sometimes there's a lot to be said for making a firm (though carefully considered) decision and then working with it

She is going to need help eventually, and In my experience it's better to have it in place/build a relationship before things become unmanageable.

I was diagnosed with my condition (it's an inflammatory Demyelinating polyneuropathy, the chronic form of Guillian-Barre syndrome) 2 years ago. I've had the same PA for 18 months and she's so happy to do washing the floors or my hair, just whatever is needed.

I'm wondering if this is key - she really needs to accept that help is required. And be prepared to get it. I think if that's done then other stuff might become more manageable. As I'm the chronically ill person where the other works in a profit/partnership industry, I see her problems, but I'm thinking the key is getting her to accept the help she's going to need?

I've just read through the whole thread. While BIL certainly seems to BU, I think the key person here is SIL. As weegiemum has pointed out.

She needs to accept help and give BIL permission to hand over responsibility for her care to someone else. She needs to understand the impact her refusal of outside help is having. Not just for right now, but into the future.

How is her relationship with the PILs? Are any of you in contact with her family? I think someone needs to have some gentle but serious conversations with her to help turn things around, without her feeling bullied.

Of course this doesn't address the long term issues between your DH and BIL, but it will allow everyone to move forward for now.

I know (hospital friends!) several folk with 2PMS.

It's frightening.

But all of the folk I've met in hospital for treatment are realistic - know its progressive, know they need help and have to look for it soon.

Your SIL sounds like she's in quite serious denial. I really think this is your key to figuring out an issue - she is the key.

I don't think that you are being unreasonable to try and force a change. I'm surprised that anyone with MS would have six children (I have MS myself). Assuming that they had at least some of the children after your SIL's diagnosis it suggests that they have been very optimistic the future and they haven't yet come to terms with the fact that things will not be as they hoped. I agree with weegiemum that your SIL (and probably your BIL) are in denial.

In some ways it would be a shame to buy them out though as that solution is so permanent and there will be no going back if your BIL and SIL do face up to things. I can understand why you want to do that though... I hope that you eventually come to a solution that works for every one.

Personally I think option 1 is the fairest, otherwise FiL taking a share back.

Your BiL cannot go on taking money he isn't earning.

You may need full legal advice now if they won't budge.

Option 1 is exactly what I was going to say long before the thread got there.

I can see that option 4 offers an extra benefit, but I do think it would be unfair to impose it against BIL will, it would not be unfair to impose option 1, as that's the way things should have been from the outset.

Whatever, correct me if I'm wrong but I think OP said SIL was diagnosed just after the birth of the sixth child??

As you say, if the buyout happens there's no going back, but I believe it was mentioned that this would provide BIL with a great deal of money in a lump sum - certainly enough to live on comfortably until he's able to work again

OP, has BIL come up with anything in the 24 hours you mentioned giving him??

So the BIL wants to take more money out of the business, and is happy for his future income to be permanently reduced (you said it would damage the business) in order to get that money now.

Has anyone pointed out to him that doing that has essentially the same result as selling part of his capital? Maybe the idea of buying out his whole share is making him panic. Could you and DH offer to buy 10% off him, release some immediate cash for him now, instead of the short term-ist, foolish idea of reducing the profitability of the business. 40% of ££££ is better than 50% of ££, after all.

That would then, conveniently, give your DH a controlling stake, so he could force through hiring more help if he wanted (wait til the signatures dried before raising that!). I agree that a rift is imminent, and that you need to keep getting advice on this to protect yourselves. Maybe an advisor could produce profit forecasts for the farm under both options, 1) you buy 10% off him so his share drops to 40% and 2) you all take money out of the business as he wants, and the income his 50% would give him then. I suspect if you show him that 40% is the best financial result, he'd agree to it....he sounds v. grabby!

Whatever, correct me if I'm wrong but I think OP said SIL was diagnosed just after the birth of the sixth child??

OP said that her SIL condition started deteriorating more profoundly 5 years ago but she didn't say that it was only diagnosed at that time. It may (and probably was) diagnosed long before that if she is now severely disabled.