Are we BU to BIL/SIL?

[iamsoannoyed]

My DH and his DB jointly took over the family farm when FIL retired.

DH and BIL (DH's DB) have always worked the farm, but when FIL retired he signed it over to them, and they originally split the work 50/50. PIL, DH and BIL reach receive 1/3 of the income of the from the farm (and when PIL pass away, this will increase to 1/2 each).

SIL has health problems, which she has had for a long-time, but has progressed more rapidly over the last 2 years. They have 6 children. Over that time BIL has had to spend more time looking after the children and his wife, which has meant my DH taking over more and more of the work.

This has progressed to the point that it really has become too much for DH to do on his own (we have 1 permanent farm worker and get in another seasonal one). He has been really exhausted last 6 months or so, but it has all been getting on top of him over the last month. He is tired all the time, has no energy to do things with me or the children and so on. BIL now only works sporadically, and frequently has to cancel even when he has agreed to help.

While we totally understand that this isn't anyones fault, and it's not because he doesn't want to work, that doesn't change the impact it is having on DH, and also upon our family life.

We had a long chat about it a few weeks ago, and agreed things can't go on as they are. DH suggested to his DB that we employ another farmworker- FIL thinks this is a good solution, and thought that DB should pay slightly more towards the cost than the rest by slightly reducing the amount he takes out in income. We put this to DB- he flatly refused. We then said we would just share the cost between us all, and all take a little less. DB said no, they couldn't afford to this and if we wanted to take on extra help, we can pay for it. He has also been asking if we can cut expenditure to take more profit out of the business. It can't be done without cutting corners, which DH doesn't want to do and FIL thinks would be foolish.

I am really cross about it- his situation and inability to contribute to the work of the farm is why they need to take on the extra help. It's not his fault, but he is getting an income without actually doing work. DH is really hurt that his DB doesn't seem to care about the impact the situation is having on us.

DH thought it might be a better idea if we bought out BIL share in the farm- that way he'd have cash which he could invest etc and use that to have an income, and DH could run the business the way he wants to. DB has refused this too.

DH and I think the best solution may be either for BIL to buy us out, and we can set up elsewhere or that they sell the farm and we each take our share.

PIL are really upset by this, and FIL in particular feels like he's failed as the farm has been in the family for generations.

BIL says we are trying to punish him for not working, and feels we don't care about him and his family.

I know it would be far better from his point of view if we all just carried on as we are, but from our point of view this is untenable. If it would be for a set period of time (i.e. a few months or a year or so), then it might be different- they are family and we do want to help, but it is not a situation that is going to improve in the forsee-able future. I am not prepared to help out to the extent that it affects my husband's welfare and our family.

His lack of flexibility suggests to me that even if we get over this, sooner or later another problem will raise it's head (e.g. him pushing for cost cutting measures), and perhaps it would be better in the longer term if we went our separate ways. Initially there would be bruised feelings, but I think it's better than long term resentment.

Are we BU to try to force through a change?

He should do half the work for 1/3 of the profit.

So to get his half done, the money from the 1/3 of the profit needs to go into paying for someone else to do the work.

Either he takes that option, or takes another option - of buying your husband out, of selling his portion to your husband, or of selling the farm.

It can't go on forever like this. And nor can your husband do ALL the work for 1/3 of the profit.

westmoreland

Thank you again for that, we will certainly have to look into that- it might just be a solution to one problem. I agree we need a long-term legal agreement as to how the farm will be run/passed on etc.

objection- she was diagnosed not long after DC5 was born.

FIL does not have 1/3 share- there is a legal agreement that the farm is now jointly owned by DH/BIL and that they will each (i.e. PIL, DH and BIL) receive 1/3 share of the income until PIL death, when it will revert to 1/2 income each. At least that is my understanding of the agreement.

1. if your BIL was working in a normal job, he would not be able to take so much time off.
2. the current situation is not a realistic, sustainable solution
3. BIL/SIL need more help at home. This is not a farm problem.

being supportive towards your BIL/SIL is agreeing he can have time off at full pay while they get a proper long term solution at home.

my DF had a degenerative condition that left him effectively tetraplegic. your BIL/SIL need a well thought out, long term, sensible plan. they are avoiding looking forward to the future. caring for them = helping them get help in their house. their life has and will change and they cannot pretend it is otherwise.

support them for the long term. but not in their in-denial-try-to-carry-on-as-usual-non-plan.

Income or profit?

Do check on this!!! As if it is profit then your husband could legally pay himself x per hour for the work done and yet FIL and brother only get 1/3 of the actual profit. Which may work out reasonable if your husband took a decent wage.

YANBU - of course your BIL doesn't want anything to change - he is winning hands down at the moment. Not working but still getting paid.

The fact that he doesn't care about the impact it is having on your DH and his health speaks volumes.

You may have to get tough with him so that your own family "survives" as the situation is not going to change shortly. It could potentially get a whole lot worse if your FIL becomes ill or if your husband has an accident from being so tired - would they help you then?? Doubt it!

Agree with everyone else, your BIL's going though a tough time but that doesn't mean the rest of the family should basically pay him not to work indefinitely. You need to sit down with an independent advisor and then get a legal agreement drawn up about how the farm will be run and divided in future, taking into account as many potential future events as you can think of.

As someone who's husband had to leave the family business, and we've ended up poorer because of it, I would seek proper legal advice on it.

My dh was practically forced out because BIL had built up debts in the business which would mean that dh would have worked a lot of hours to get it out of debt which wasn't his debt.

We're still quite bitter about it all.

I'm probably a lone voice but if I could afford to support my extended family during an extended patch of illness I would. In the big scheme of things it's only money and other things are more important. It all sounds a little grabby when infact the business is doing fine and supporting him is affordable.

Maybe there is another way of making things fairer but still supporting family. Both could withdraw x (amount presently paid) but then DH could receive an additional amount as an additional income - hourly pay. A part time worker also taken on to help but paid out of farm profits. Your BIL could also work part time to also receive 'hourly pay.

Your DH is very lucky to have half a farm. Most children do not inherit such a substantial thing that includes an attached income. Your are all very fortunate.

Also remember that that children will all eventually be at school (or receiving 15 hours free nursery childcare) so freeing up a chunk of time for BIL to work. I recon the situation will change anyway naturally

Which would be a fine point Random if that actually was the problem.

You cannot run a farm that size without replacing the missing body. It's not sustainable and it's not safe - so it's very lovely that they support bil & sil, until his brother collapses, get injured or dies in an accident (truly god forbid) due to exhaustion - then everyone will be fucked and then who will play the 'who has it harder' game?

Op your bil is being so unreasonable. I can't offer anything more eminently sensible than Westmoreland. But I do agree bil & sil have to budge one way or another or risk losing everything.

What really needs to happen is that someone is employed to take over BIL's share of the work and that expense is offset against the profits, just like in any other business. Ultimately, this will mean that all three shoulder the expense proportionally as shareholders. If that means there is less to plough back into the business, so be it. Shareholders and directors rarely take an hourly wage to reflect the hours put in as that's not how companies are set up to operate.

Family businesses can work but often they become a source of stress and worse.. Of course your BIL is being totally unreasonable in this instance but he is looking after his own interests and family which is in a way understandable. I agree with an outside mediator and a more formal agreement drawn up by a specialist lawyer. It's the only way forward if you can't agree.

Your DH also must look after his health.

YANBU at all! If the proviso for the two brothers getting one-third each of the income is that they should both be working on the farm, bil should be hiring a labourer if he's not able to. Could your fil change it so it's only 1/3 each of the profit and hire extra labour before calculating this (which of course would decrease the amount for all of you though)?

randomness

Of course they are fortunate to have inherited the farm, and due to their father's hard work and good business sense it is a good, solid business. I don't think it alters the fact that we cannot go on as we are. BIL has already attempted to veto employing an extra person, as he doesn't want his income to be affected.

It's not grabby to expect that BIL shoulders his share of the work, or ensures there is someone else to do the work, so my DH does not become overwhelmed. He is exhausted and this situation is not sustainable.

He is essentially not putting anything into the business while expecting to take the same out as he would if he was. Whilst accepting it's not a situation of BIL's choice or making, that doesn't mean that we should just accept a situation which is intolerable either.

Incidently, the house they live in now was built for them- customised to their needs. They don't have a mortgage, so it's not like they have to worry about housing in the future (this wouldn't be included if the farm were sold or we bought them out). We have all tried to help as much as we can, but there is a limit.

I'm not an accountant, but surely he should not be receiving a wage, but would be entitled to his share of the profits, whilst he's not at work.

BIL needs to look at the situation realistically and I agree that a third party getting involved and offering advice is the only solution.

TBH I'm not sure exactly how the agreement is worded. I don't work on the farm, and don't know the ins-and-outs of how the finances are managed.

I know that at present, all 3 get the same income.

We are going to seek independent advice, as Westmoreland suggested. I have also suggested they look into the personal assistant that Westmoreland suggested.

I think things need to be sorted out once and for all. BIL has this morning grudgingly agreed getting independent advice, but feels we are rail-roading him into things he doesn't want to do with the threat of forcing a sale. We have said that would be the worst outcome for all of us, and we really want to avoid it if at all possible- but that it is something that may have to be considered if we can't come to an agreement.

I second what Chris just said.

BIL should not receive a salary if he's not working, just profit share.
His salary could then be spent on employing another FT worker.

The trouble is BIL is to wrapped in his family life that he is not thinking about anyone else.

Hopefully an out side person can get him too that this can not continue and that he and his wife need to come up with a way of funding the help they need at home to allow BIL to continue to work in the family business.

If he worked for any other company his continued employment / salary would be in doubt.

It would be easier if BIL would just let us by him out. I don't see why he won't

We have business-owning friends in a sadly similar position - though to be fair, their "non-working" members are idle rather than ill

The reason he resists a buy-out is quite simple: he'd get a lump sum and when it's gone it's gone, whereas now he gets a regular, equal income which he hopes (expects?) will continue indefinitely

Taking independent advice is very wise, but I think you'll have to face the fact that the necessary solution will cause upset no matter how it's presented; unfortunately, that's sometimes the way with family businesses

Someone needs to point out to the BIL that his income is dependent on the health of OP's DH. If the DH cannot carry on, then the farm will have to be sold anyway.

So if hiring a worker enables the DH to carry on, then the BIL is going to have to suck it up and take his share of the drop in income.

It probably will need that independent advisor, since he's resisting all the family at present.

do you pay salary or just 1/3 income. Perhaps they should renegotiate so that at least part is salary and BILs is prorated according to how many hours he actually works. That may then free up some money for extra help on the farm. If he isn't keen on that he needs to look at the domestic arrangements and consider a carer and/or home help as the situation isn't likely to change for the better and it would be better for him and his family if he was working at least part time.

I think the best thing might be to employ another person, but split the costs equally even if that doesn't seem fair at the moment. Say to BIL that the farm business will meet those costs for 2 years.

That gives your DH immediate respite and provides for emergencies.

In the meantime, look into mediation as suggested above.

Branching out, BIL has already refused that and said that they should pay the extra salary as he won't.

If it is a self employed business it is not a salary but "drawings" that they all receive.
I am self employed and receive drawings from the business. My partnership agreement stipulates that if I am off for more than a month I have to pay for my replacement out of my drawings which I continue to receive.
I also pay into a locum insurance scheme which pays out if I cannot work for more than 3 months and a per meant health insurance scheme which pays out if I am unable to work after a year due to ill health.
If you are self employed you have to be responsible for all eventualities. As someone said up thread it is all very well being kind with the money to the family but this is a business and as the OP says her husband needs support in the form of another worker or else the whole thing will go under.

You need legal advice and an agreement drawn up between all of you as to what happens in these situations. Good luck OP

Permanent. Not per meant

I think the OP said that the original suggestion was that the DB might pay more of the costs, which he then batted back. He then also got huffy over the even split, but I think that it sounds more likely that he might accept that if it is presented as the least worst option.