Are we BU to BIL/SIL?

[iamsoannoyed]

My DH and his DB jointly took over the family farm when FIL retired.

DH and BIL (DH's DB) have always worked the farm, but when FIL retired he signed it over to them, and they originally split the work 50/50. PIL, DH and BIL reach receive 1/3 of the income of the from the farm (and when PIL pass away, this will increase to 1/2 each).

SIL has health problems, which she has had for a long-time, but has progressed more rapidly over the last 2 years. They have 6 children. Over that time BIL has had to spend more time looking after the children and his wife, which has meant my DH taking over more and more of the work.

This has progressed to the point that it really has become too much for DH to do on his own (we have 1 permanent farm worker and get in another seasonal one). He has been really exhausted last 6 months or so, but it has all been getting on top of him over the last month. He is tired all the time, has no energy to do things with me or the children and so on. BIL now only works sporadically, and frequently has to cancel even when he has agreed to help.

While we totally understand that this isn't anyones fault, and it's not because he doesn't want to work, that doesn't change the impact it is having on DH, and also upon our family life.

We had a long chat about it a few weeks ago, and agreed things can't go on as they are. DH suggested to his DB that we employ another farmworker- FIL thinks this is a good solution, and thought that DB should pay slightly more towards the cost than the rest by slightly reducing the amount he takes out in income. We put this to DB- he flatly refused. We then said we would just share the cost between us all, and all take a little less. DB said no, they couldn't afford to this and if we wanted to take on extra help, we can pay for it. He has also been asking if we can cut expenditure to take more profit out of the business. It can't be done without cutting corners, which DH doesn't want to do and FIL thinks would be foolish.

I am really cross about it- his situation and inability to contribute to the work of the farm is why they need to take on the extra help. It's not his fault, but he is getting an income without actually doing work. DH is really hurt that his DB doesn't seem to care about the impact the situation is having on us.

DH thought it might be a better idea if we bought out BIL share in the farm- that way he'd have cash which he could invest etc and use that to have an income, and DH could run the business the way he wants to. DB has refused this too.

DH and I think the best solution may be either for BIL to buy us out, and we can set up elsewhere or that they sell the farm and we each take our share.

PIL are really upset by this, and FIL in particular feels like he's failed as the farm has been in the family for generations.

BIL says we are trying to punish him for not working, and feels we don't care about him and his family.

I know it would be far better from his point of view if we all just carried on as we are, but from our point of view this is untenable. If it would be for a set period of time (i.e. a few months or a year or so), then it might be different- they are family and we do want to help, but it is not a situation that is going to improve in the forsee-able future. I am not prepared to help out to the extent that it affects my husband's welfare and our family.

His lack of flexibility suggests to me that even if we get over this, sooner or later another problem will raise it's head (e.g. him pushing for cost cutting measures), and perhaps it would be better in the longer term if we went our separate ways. Initially there would be bruised feelings, but I think it's better than long term resentment.

Are we BU to try to force through a change?

Just read the thread - the thing that was standing out to me is that BIL should work and a carer/assistant should be taken on for SIL. Does she have the progressive type of MS or the type that means symptoms come and go?

It's not on that he is not working, taking his cut and won't pay towards additional help.

I'm a farmer and I don't think yabu.

On one hand I do think that part of the joy of family farms is that they can support families in times such as you describe. However your bil needs to suck up that the farm would not survive without your dh and he needs to adjust his expectations. I expect if you are a doctor and his wife doesn't work they are more heavily Reliant upon their share

Independent adjudication could be the way forward

Have to say in yours and your dh's place I'd be fighting tooth and nail to buy him out - what is a a viable business for the two brothers will not be once their children want a share. I'd be aiming to buy him out now whilst the finances are good.

Your BIL is being wildly unreasonable - you have suggested 5 reasonable options and he has refused them all.

The immediate family difficulties he faces must be tough, and he is probably also keen, like his father, not to feel that he has "failed" though surely no-one else would accuse him of that in his circumstances.

You can't carry on like this, your DH will become ill himself as well as unhappy and then the whole business will be at risk. If he needs outside business advice to be able to see it, then that's what you will have to get. You can re-present him with the options, with a sixth of your DH selling to a third party.

Yeah peanut those were my thoughts too. If BIL and SIL have six children and OP has her own children who out of the cousins gets to inherit! Thats why they need to take this opportunity to look at succession planning too, although understandably this could be difficult if the children/cousins themselves are not at an age where they might know their intentions.

Farm businesses just aren't like other family businesses, and sadly it leads to huge amounts of heartache all across the country.

Your BIL is being wildly unreasonable - you have suggested 5 reasonable options and he has refused them all

I completely agree, which is why I said that whatever OP's family do, it's unlikely to go down well

Family businesses can be wonderful things while things are going smoothly; unfortunately when they don't, expectations can crop up which simply wouldn't wash in any other setting. It's also much harder to be firm, given the relationships involved

Does anyone know how much independent mediators charge? Only if it's going to be another drain on the finances and BIL still plays up no matter what's suggested, is it really such a good idea after all ... ??

Given that your BIL has said no to every suggestion made, have you asked him to put forward ideas of his own (beyond getting others to pay for the extra help)? As has been said, the situation is untenable and your dh's health may also be compromised if something does not change. Perhaps the waters are muddied because BIL might be viewing this more as his advance inheritance, rather than a working family business to which he should contribute equally.

Peanut

I agree, I think we've all been a bit lax in not getting it sorted before now, as Westmoreland has suggested. It genuinely hadn't occurred to me- I don't have a lot to do with the business-side of things, so I'm not sure of the exact set up/agreements they have, but it's clear this should have been sorted some time ago. It surprises me that it hasn't been, as FIL normally has a good business head, as does DH.

I agree, we rely far less on the DH's share than BIL's family- although I think they get disability benefits etc too. However, they have 6 children and we have 2, which means their income has to go a lot farther than ours. I agree getting care sorted for SIL, to free up BIL would be the most sensible solution in the first instance.

I also agree that it may be simpler at this point (and more sensible financially) for us to buy him out at this point. He would get a sizeable lump sum- enough that I think they would be able to live on, if used correctly.

I think part of the problem is BIL is the elder brother, and from something SIL said in the past, I think he had hoped/assumed that he would inherit the farm, or at least majority share (and DH given either a lump sum/minority share/combination the two). FIL did not think this was fair, so split it equally between his children. Now BIL feels like he's being pushed into doing things he doesn't want to do, which wouldn't have happened if things had gone as expected.

It has raised it's head in the past, when BIL has wanted to take more out of the business in income rather than invest in the business- to which DH and FIL said no. BIL was very disgruntled about this. In hindsight, we should have seen this as a warning to get these issues sorted out.

I think an additional issue muddying the waters is that DH and his dad are very close (they are quite alike), more so than BIL is to FIL (not that they don't get on, they do and have a good relationship). I get on well with PIL- particularly FIL and we do see them quite often outside of "work". FIL once told me he thought DH was the safer pair of hands when it came to the farm, and that he was concerned how BIL would manage the farm o n his own. This was part of the reason he split the farm equally between them (that and he didn't want to favour one over the other). As far as I'm aware BIL doesn't know this, and I have never told DH what FIL said.

I wonder if all of this makes it seem like we are "ganging up" on him, so to speak, and that's why he's digging his heels in.

From something SIL said in the past, I think he had hoped/assumed that he would inherit the farm, or at least majority share

I confess I'd wondered whether "frustrated expectations" were involved. Can I ask if there's any particular reason why BIL thought this way? Has he shouldered the lion's share share of the work in the past or invested more of his personal money in the farm, for example?

Unfortunately life doesn't always turn out as we'd like, and I wonder if he'd expect the cost of a carer to be split too; far from "ganging up on him" I honestly wonder if you've maybe bent over too far already. At some point he'll have to accept that others need to protect their interests too, that family loyalty goes both ways and that he can't expect a free ride for ever

Obviously hindsight is 20:20, but such a shame FIL didn't retain 10% or something so able to have a casting vote in any decisions eg dividend payments etc.

Hopefully you will be able to buy out BIL although this itself is very difficult.

"I also agree that it may be simpler at this point (and more sensible financially) for us to buy him out at this point. He would get a sizeable lump sum- enough that I think they would be able to live on, if used correctly."

Once he sold you his share of the farm, he would have no earned income and (with six children and a disabled and progressively[?] ill wife) he'd hardly be in a position to go out and get a job.
His wife would continue to get DLA, currently £138.05 at highest rates of care and mobility components, which is not means tested, but although your BIL would not be working, the capital gained from selling the farm would come into account when trying to claim other benefits, which are means tested.
Using today's online figures, with multiple well-handled accounts one could gross around £800 per month on savings of £500000 (BoE figure), so unless their one-third share of the farm amounts to well over half a million, BIL may well find himself using the capital to support his family.
I don't know if it has yet been clarified just how debilitating his wife's illness is, what type of MS she has, or it's expected course, but no matter really, I think most people would agree this family are facing some very difficult issues.

I can see that holding on to his share of the family farm must, in many ways, seem like a lifeline to BIL. Not just his future, but his stable past.

"I wonder if all of this makes it seem like we are "ganging up" on him"

I expect it quite likely does seem that way to him. At this most heartbreaking time in his life, a time when he might well expect to feel secure and supported in this extended family all living on one farm, that extended family's preferred and 'simplest' solution is to buy him out.

That would remove him from the family (business) in more ways than one, I expect.

I do understand there are three families in this equation, and your DH is seriously struggling, so a solution does have to be found.
However, given the future your poor BIL and his children may be facing, I do think everything possible should be done to find a solution that protects your BIL status as equal owner of the family farm.

"Obviously hindsight is 20:20, but such a shame FIL didn't retain 10% or something so able to have a casting vote in any decisions eg dividend payments etc"

Looking at the OP the FIL retained a full one third share, whois, so is already in a position to have a casting vote.

Very difficult for you and your DH op - although it does seem that BIL/SIL are being unreasonable due to their expectation of inheriting everything. Very old-fashioned view, and it's brilliant that your PIL are obviously more forward thinking.

Have you asked BIL what he would anticipate happening if you DH became ill and couldn't work? Clearly FIL couldn't handle everything (he's retired!!!), BIL is his DW's carer so everything would go to pot. And if the pressure keeps piling up on your DH, his health must be a concern. Good job you're a doctor!

Outside professional help must be the way to go, but a little bit of thinking about the overall situation wouldn't do your BIL any harm.

It's a good sign that the BIL has agreed to involve an independant advisor.

It's not suprising that his initial reaction to any sign of disquiet from the rest of the family was defensive - it's human nature to react like that.

It doesn't necessarily mean that he will continue to be obstructive once he's had a bit more time to come to terms with things.

Puzzled

As far as I know, it was based on the tradition that the eldest son often inherited the farm in it's entirety, or less commonly held the majority share. Younger sons and daughters traditionally get a lump sum (although in smaller farms, they may not even get this). I am not aware of his ever having been told he would inherit everything- although I've never asked FIL, so cannot be 100% sure.

ADish

SIL has secondary progressive MS, so the future not an easy one, although the rate of decline is quite uncertain. It's not that I don't feel for them and we have done our best for some years now- but we cannot go on as we are and so far, he has not been keen on any compromise. He has already been looking to pull more money out of the business, and this has been a source of conflict too.

1/2 of the cost of the farm business would be a lot more than £500,000, so invested wisely it could be used as a source of income. Remember, they wouldn't have mortgage costs as their house was built for them and is owned out-right. I'm not saying it's ideal from their point of view, but if he can't agree to a compromise then it is the simplest way forward. And as has been pointed out to me here, there is the other aspect- what happens when all the cousins come to inherit? The farm will not support 8 families, so it will have to be dealt with at some point. If no agreement is possible, it may be simpler to buy them out now in other ways too.

buying him out does seem like a good solution, but he's looking at losing his cash cow and can't see him giving it up easily. so not easy to resolve. right now he's getting an income without doing the work.

Interesting expectation about the "tradition", iamsoannoyed - traditionally those unable to work got practically nothing and I can't imagine he'd be keen on that one

Nobody would wish him ill in his difficult sitution, but as you've said he's not the only one affected. Since he's rejected each of your solutions, what suggestion has he made himself on how to resolve this?

I suspect your BIL is panicking about money in general. I bet with a disabled wife and 6 kids to support that he is stony broke as it is, so the prospect of losing a chunk of income seems like the end of the world. I don't think you are BU, but I think all he can see is a big hole in his already stretched finances, which is why he's reacted as he has. Add in the fact that as his wife's carer he's probably exhausted, stressed and grieving and he's looking after 6 kids as well, and you have a man who isn't going to be thinking all that rationally. I'm really sorry for everybody, tbh.

How old are his kids? (And yours?) Are any of them old enough to help out part-time, or to be able to do so in a few years? Do any of them currently say they want to farm when they grow up? I'm wondering whether a compromise could be reached if BIL knew it was only for a few years.

iamsoannoyed can I ask how long this has actually gone on for in total? You mentioned "some years" but didn't expand

I'm just thinking there's a great deal being said about BIL's difficult situation and maybe not enough about your own DH's welfare ... after all, if (god forbid) he became seriously ill with the overwork, the money situation would hardly be helped

Also, when BIL mentioned taking money out of the business, did he mean for everyone to have a share, or just to draw some himself?

So sorry, but his is beginning to sound just a bit too one-sided ...

Whilst on paper buying him out might seem like The Right Thing in reality it will probably cause irreconcilable heartache.

The oldest male sibling is always expected to inherit in farming unless they themselves choose not to (which is also pretty common). The most frequent cause of family arguments in farming is when two sons both want to take over the farm. The OP is unusual in that the farm is currently sustaining 3 families, most family farms barely sustain one these days!

The OP's FIL has been incredibly fair in doing what he has done, but has also caused this problem in the first place in being fair. Usually one son would have been expected to go off and do something off the farm instead, as it stops this very problem.

I do think no hasty decisions should be made. BIL's family need to get some support in place first and then BIL needs to re-evaluate just how much he can contribute to the business.

As wrong as it might seem to those on the outside, BIL probably never expected to be in a position where he would be doing anything other than farming the family farm. He will be at a complete loss as to what else to do, and his wife has a progressive illness. His life is crashing down around him and people in farming communities just don't do 'asking for outside help'.

I really feel for him, OP and for the rest of the family.

TooExtra

Our children are 4 and 7. His eldest is 18 and youngest is nearly 6. His eldest is going to university in September, but isn't sure about going into the farm one way or the other.

Puzzled

SIL condition started deteriorating more profoundly 5 years ago, BIL has been able to work less and less since then. At first it was a couple of weeks every 2 months or so, then more like every other month, and has steadily progressed since then. About 18 months ago, it got to the point that BIL was averaging a day a week, with the last 6 months or so he has worked about 5 days in total

How many years has DH worked on the farm?
How many years has BIL worked On the farm?

How old are BIL's kids? When will the youngest be 3 and therefore entitled to 15 hours free care? Can care be found for SIL while the kids are at school/nursery, freeing up BIL to work?

Ps. My husbands friend had MS and he seemed to be ok for years but then rapidly went down hill only to pass away quite quickly last year. Heartbreaking.

In your shoes id ensure that BIL feels mentally and physically 'held', he's got a tricky few years ahead. There must be a way of making both brothers have a win win outcome.

Possibly BIL could get careers allowance but finances would need to be rearranged first

That's a very, very long time your DH has been taking up the slack, iamsoannoyed, so I completely understand your concerns about him. In a way it's a shame BIL's eldest isn't available to assist, but I guess that can't be helped even though they're family members too

Since it's been going on so long (and your SIL won't always have been as poorly) what thoughts has your BIL had about what to do if this happened? And since he's rejected most of your proposals, what suggestions does he have now for a solution which will be fair to everyone?

I have endless sympathy for the BIL but he also sounds incredibly selfish - it sounds like he's been selfish for longer than his wife has been ill.
It's unfair and unreasonable to take an income from something you are not contributing towards, to the detriment of another's health and workload.
Yes, his circumstance is shit but that doesn't give him a get out of jail free card.