to think SIL is in denial about my nice?

[Chucara]

my nice is 16 months old. At the moment she can't sit by her own unaided, does not crawl or walk, does not talk, does not point to things, and her eye contact is poor. My SIL thinks she is just too big and chubby to be bothered to move around and that it is a matter of time until she catch up. Apart from the fact that she is clearly developementally delayed in all aspects, my gut feeling is that there is something wrong with my nice and that she should be seen by a specialist or relevant person asap.

the thing is that i'm not close enough to my SIL to talk to her about this delicate subject and dont want to either hurt her feelings or maybe be wrong about it and regret having said anything about it!

Help Mumsnetters! what shall i do?

I had exactly the same worries about my niece and tried to mention it to my db and sil. They would not have it and were angry and defensive. When dn started nursery, they flagged up concerns and referred her for immediate assessment. She is 7 now and thriving but severely autistic, nonverbal and attends a great school which meets her needs brilliantly. Sil and dB admit they were terrified and didn't want to hear it and it took a professional intervening for them to confront it. I couldn't have said or done anything.

thank you olympicsrock, i'm ready for digital cremation!

A lack of crawling or walking would not unduly concern me. A lack of talking is certainly nothing to be bothered about. My oldest child talked 'late' and I dislike the modern habit of plugging v young children in to S&L therapy so early. However the other two aspects - not sitting is a worry and I would also be concerned about eye contact. Do you mean she appears not to find other people's faces interesting? If you smile at her does she smile back? I've only seen one child in my acquaintance who won't do that and she does indeed have substantial development issues.
I think you have to say something about this. I wouldn't mention the walking etc. She's still within 'norms' for that but not the other stuff. I would concentrate on the sitting thing tbh.

My friend was in exactly the same situation regarding her nephew, and eventually she and her husband spoke to his brother about their concerns. The HVs had not flagged up any concerns, and the child's parents thought he was just a 'good' baby, i.e. quiet and easy to look after. As a result of this conversation the parents pushed for an assessment and sadly their little boy was found to have severe autism (I don't know the exact diagnosis so my language may be incorrect here), and it is likely he will never walk or talk. Now they have a diagnosis they have been able to access proper help in managing his condition and helping him communicate.

It's really up to you whether you say anything or not, but I think I would.

thank you mrs maturin. if i decide to say something i think concetrating on the sitting is wise.

thanks a lot dolicapax, the border between chilled out baby and sen baby might be adifficult one to manage too

Well if she's that age and not moving she's going to be chubby. There will be calories in but far fewer calories expended. Is this your husband's family? Would his mother not say something?

my MIL tends ti be a denier of difficuky as well... but it might be good to discretly mention something to her too

I'm hypothesising here but I wonder if the cultural differences may also be the cause of some differences in terms of development and what typical development is, within that culture. So much of infant's development, particularly in those first three years, is dependent on how others interact with them and how they are encouraged to interact with the world.

I did a fair bit of travelling across Asia and Africa before university and in Northern India I visited tea plantations where there were mothers who worked picking tea for long hours each day with their young children in slings on their backs. Hypothetically if children spend a lot of time being worn and not on the floor that could mean they develop physical skills such as sitting up/ walking etc at a later date than children who spend more time on the floor? If culturally there isn't the same pressure as there sometimes is in the UK to have babies meeting milestones as young as possible parents might also put less time into teaching their children to do these things - I spent and spend a fair bit of time with my DD (9mo) on the floor doing things to help her learn physical skills.

I volunteered in an orphanage in Uganda too (as an aside they force fed the babies there and I was really uncomfortable with it too) and there were a couple of early years workers from the UK who came to the orphanage whilst I was there to help the Ugandan staff members to interact with the babies. Many of the nursery nurses in the orphanage didn't seem to know how to be with babies (eg: singing, chatting, peekaboo games etc) and would pick a baby up, sit it on his/her lap looking away from them out to the room and just sit in silence ignoring it. I guess that to an extent was a cultural difference in terms of how people interacted with babies. The early years workers went out into the community too and worked with parents as they had found that in some communities a lot of parents didn't know how to interact with their babies properly (eg: talking, singing etc) and they wanted to help facilitate that. In the orphanage most of the babies were well behind where I would have expected them to be, although obviously that is a different situation but I do think cultural norms and expectations probably effect infant development. Your niece may be behind the expected milestones for the UK but within the normal range for her culture. Some things (like pointing/ eye-contact) might even be rude in her culture hence why she isn't doing them?

That said being a parent yourself and being in close proximity to your niece it sounds like you are in a fairly informed position to be feeling your concerns. I guess all you can do is be ready to be there for your SIL if in the future your concerns to turn out to be justified. Good luck.

I am not sure that the docs can "fix" this stuff, particularly at 16mo. For example, speech therapy (if needed) is more effective when children turn 3.

I do think not sitting unaided at 16mo is unusual. Mine were late to sit, but managed it by 10/11mo. But even so, the doc cannot make the child sit. So I don't think the situation is urgent.

Since you aren't close, don't say anything and just wait for nursery/similar to pick it up and then she will be obliged to seek help.

You sound like my mother op She is constantly harping on about my nephew-nearly 2,not talking,limited eye contact etc. I have explained that there is very little they can do at this stage even if-and it's a big IF-there are indeed sen or additional needs.

I have a dc with additional needs btw and its had taken me 11 years to accept this do please try and have a little empathy for your sil.

Agree with everything APlaceInTheWinter wrote.

Nothing to do with you and maybe they are aware of a problem. If she's seeing a paediatrician once a month then I suspect that they are and are choosing not to tell you.

Also find it unfortunate to say the least that you imply that you shouldn't have a second child if your first has special needs.

olympicsrock I remember your thread and I think the way you portray what happened isn't really the full truth. You came across as very interfering and a number of us said what has been said here, that just because you weren't let into their confidence, doesn't mean they're in denial. If I recall correctly you said you were a medical professional but seemed to have little understanding of developmental milestones and issues of medical confidentiality.

OP - I hope your niece is ok but you can best support them by respecting their privacy and not engaging in family gossip.

And please DO NOT write things like 'SEN baby'.

IF your niece does indeed have special needs then she is a baby with special needs, not a 'SEN baby'. FFS.

thanks so much chesterberry, all excellent points which i had somehow in mind but hadn't been able to verbalize so far. the level of stimuli that my SiL provides is non existent compared to the one that uk's culture suggests we should. and maybe that is why anxiety levels in children in the uk are so high! mind you my sil is a well educated to ba level, middle class professional and quite aware of the stimuli children need to progress.

i definitely think there are big cultural differences though!

Bluebird - no need to start attacking me again. There was no need to describe my whole situation in detail again here.

I think you'll see that from my post that I have reflected on this issue and realise that the best thing that a relative can do is to take a back seat and be there for support if needed.

thanks all for the comments, they are very useful in making me see this under different lights which is the whole point of mumsnet i think

olympicsrock I wasn't attacking you - I felt it was important to the OP to give the other side of the story. As for describing your situation here, it was you who brought up your previous thread in the first place!

I did note that you'd obviously had a rethink but using language like telling the OP to expect a 'flaming' and saying we were 'harsh' on the other thread is rather negative.

by the way andrew solomon's far from the tree is a fantastic book to think about children who are different to their parents or families, might be worth a reread at least in my case...!

what country does your niece live in, Chucara?

Bluebird - I think you'll find the phrase "flaming" very common in AIBU, used for dramatic emphasis. For what it's worth, I suspect that OP came onto mumsnet to seek help and advice to do the best thing for her niece just like I did.

Bluebird I understand your strong feelings about this but perhaps be a little more gentle, less of the FFS. I didn't want OP to end up feeling as bruised as I did by the experience.

As you well know, because you can read, my 'FFS' was at the use of the phrase 'SEN baby'. I find that offensive, as do many other parents of children with special needs / disabilities.

You obviously need it explaining so I will - by putting the condition first you're basically saying a number of things;

• that's the first thing worth noting about that child;
• that's the only thing worth noting about that child;
• that the child is 'different' and not a child first and foremost;
• that 'SEN babies / children' can all be lumped together in a homogenous mass;

I could go on.

Don't you dare tell me how I should feel about that kind of casual, insidious, but nonetheless ignorant, disablism. I have to encounter it frequently and I'm not going to 'gentle' about it. You may have heard a few cliches about mothers of children with special needs being especially patient, gentle and martyr-like. Well, I'm NOT that mother.

Don't need it explaining I got it. Just thought you were unnecessarily aggressive.

I always use person-first language when talking about other people as I think that is what many people prefer and some people do find putting the disability first offensive, however there is an interesting counter-movement (mainly within the autistic community from what I have seen) which takes offence at person-first language. Their argument is that we only tend to put the person first when talking about a quality that is negative, so we wouldn't mind saying, for example 'athletic person' or 'blue-eyed person' or 'female person' because none of those things are generally perceived as negative. Equally they argue their additional needs are a part of them, and something which is always a part of them, and so to try and separate it from them is offensive. We had an autistic woman who came to speak to us at the school where I work and she insisted she was an 'autistic woman' and not a 'woman with autism.' It was very interesting to hear her talk about her reasons for feeling like that and she made some very interesting points.

That said I am not a person with an additional needs so I do always put the person-first unless I know I am talking to/about somebody with a preference for me to do otherwise but I did find it interesting to research the other point of view.

Bluebird i agree with olympicsrock there are ways of "educating" people about these issues without being agressive or patronising. you might want to explore other tones and narratives instead?

OP Your niece would be referred to our child development clinic given your description.
Not sitting unaided at 16 mths is as significant delay.
That would concern me and given her other delays I would expect her to have a full developmental assessment.

It is always possible for delayed children to 'catch up' but it is also possible that her delays are due to an underlying genetic issue or disability.

There is a lot of 'watch and wait' at this age but if a developmental delay is suspected it is important that stratagies are put in place to maximise the child's potential.

The situation you describe is not an uncommon one and it is tricky. There is always the possibility that your MIL is right and your niece is fine.
Personally I would be concerned if she were my child (and I have been in this situation).

The bottom line is there is not much you can do if your family are not concerned enough to intervene.