To feel free to use other children's toys in the sandpit?

[HarderToKidnap]

We go to lots of parks with our 2.4yo DS. He loves the sandpit and often we take our own spades etc, although sometimes we forget and sometimes go somewhere adhoc and don't have things with us, or go to a new place where we don't realise there is a sandpit.

Now, often in communal sandpits there are various buckets and spades lying around looking abandoned. I always feel free to give these to DS to use, having had a quick peek round for the owner. If after I pick up the spade I can't see anyone looking territorial, I will just give it to him to use. I keep an eye out for anyone coming near us spadeless, so I can quickly check with them whether the spade is theirs, and leave the stuff where i found it when we're ready to go. If I abandon my spade whilst DS toddles off to another attraction and I see someone else using it, I never mind. Just part of being at the park.

Anyway, got a mouthful off someone the other day for using a bucket they'd left in the pit. They'd stuck some paper pictures onto the bucket and one had come off. I'd noticed this before picking up the bucket, which had been laid there a good twenty minutes before DS picked it up. I stashed the paper pic safely and was intending to leave it in the bucket when we left. To reiterate pic had already come off bucket and was next to it. They were REALLY cross about the use of the bucket and obv thought we'd caused the pic to come off.

Discussing with friends today, there seems to be an even split between those who thought I was hideous for using someone else's toys, and those who thought mouthy mother was a lunatic. MN Jury, what say ye?

P.S., I'm not intending to change my behaviour at all, btw, regardless of MN consensus. I love the give and take in the sandpit and have had nothing but positive interactions with other mums and kids re the sharing of toys, save this one incident. This AIBU is purely for information gathering purposes!

We will have to agree to disagree. I can't imagine getting petty over a child using a bucket that I'd abandoned.

Another one to add to the 'things I might do to piss people off' list.

Koala no....your DS doesn't understand yet...that's your job to teach him! If a toddler of mine picked up someone else's bucket I would say "No...that's not ours." and replace it. You have to be clear and firm....they soon work out that in playgroup, all the toys are for everyone and in the park, it's not the same!

TBH PrimalLass I wouldn't make a giant fuss if it happened that someone "borrowed" our stuff but I would NEVER let my children do it, just bad manners (from parent rather than child) if you ask me.

Why doesn't everyone just write their child's name on their toys? Then if they are left and someone uses them there is no problem getting them back and no confusion as to whether they are communal. Personally I don't mind sharing if the parent/child asks and they play with my child, and would let my child play if I thought they were communal or ask if not. Moving away with the toys is a no-no.

If you go away and leave them for any length of time and are out of sight and they are not marked as yours I don't think you could be cross at someone thinking they could be used. It's a tricky one though as other areas don't tend to have toys that are left out like that for e.g. football pitches don't have communal balls so it's easier to get confused at sand pits.

gorionine - I don't think it is good manners to leave the stuff there and go out of sight for 20 mins either. If I saw an abandoned bucket like that I would assume that it was a) communal, belonging to the park or b) had been left and forgotten about days ago.

Other posters are using analogies so here goes. If you had a can of juice , and left it (nothing else) half drunk on a picnic table then went away out of sight for 20 mins, would someone needing the table be unreasonable to think you had littered and to throw it in the bin?

MiaowTheCat - I am sure that you will be careful to not leave your bucket/spade/generic toy and wander off.

I live in a smallish village. If we are in the park then the kids all play with each other's scooters/football/etc.

Ok, the ones who think it's rude for toddlers to play with temporarily abandoned sandpit toys... Why is it rude? It makes no material difference to the owner and provides pleasure for a toddler. It's a massive win-win. I'm looking to go a bit deeper than "because it's MY/MY DC's stuff". Yes, it's your stuff, but why is the ownership of the stuff so important in this circumstance?

Also, how long is it reasonable to not use the bucket for/bin the can of juice? Should the bucket stay untouched in perpetuum just in case?

Why is it rude? It makes no material difference to the owner and provides pleasure for a toddler.

Its about teaching appropriate behavior. You can't say oh well, that isn't worth much so I will take the decision to borrow it. Where do you stop? Where do you teach a child to stop? At a bucket? A ball? A pair of roller skates? A bike? A car? Should I pop round and borrow your lawn mower that you left out? I don't need to ask you, as you shouldn't mind. Children don't understand the value of things, and its not for you decide what a stranger should lend you. And the people in your op were not happy because a picture had come off the bucket. You wouldn't have left yourself open to accusation if you hadn't touched it in the first place.

Fwiw I wouldn't have a huge issue about children borrowing sand pit toys, as long as its not going to be a pita for me to get them back. Although I would prefer they asked, I would be unlikely to say no. But I wouldn't let my kids grab stuff without physically asking first if its ok. Its about developing good manners and that goes a long way to existing happily with others in society. Your focus is on the bucket and the value of that, when it should be about teaching your child to coexist in harmony alongside other people.

We used to go to a place with a sandpit and pool and I always took toys, buckets, spades etc for my kids to play with. It boiled my piss that they were immediately surrounded by children standing over them staring at their buckets and spades virtually unblinking like a bunch of vultures. The split second my kids put their spade down for example to up-end the bucket with both hands, the spade would be snatched up. I used to say in a loud voice "I am sorry but my child is using that. Why don't you go and ask your mummy if you can have YOUR bucket and spade?" knowing full well that their mothers who were merrily chatting/texting/ignoring their kids hadn't been bloody arsed to bring anything with them.

And this is why DS and DD have labels on all their beach toys. I have no problem with other children using them at all but they are labelled so we can get them back easily.

I did have one lovely situation where DS and DD were playing in a small water park. All the kids were having a lovely game ith the water using our buckets and spades. DS and DD got bored and wanted to walk to another part of the park. I told the borrowing kids that we would be back in 10 mins and would be leaving then so would need the stuff back. Got back 10 mins later, sent DS and DD to ask for their NAMED stuff back. The kids wouldn't give them back. So I went to get them. Child in 'charge' of the game refused. When I insisted he ran off to his parents and told them the mean lady was spoiling his game....... They felt I was unreasonable to ask for my stuff back. Apparently I should let him keep it as he was having such a lovely time and I was going home.........

i think it's very different if there is a clear owner, using it and it gets put down while they are still there. then of course i wouldn't let ds use it. we were on holiday last week and there were often children using their own buckets and spades and then would trot into the sea and leave them. i wouldn't let ds go over and use them and would say 'no, that's not yours' and distract him etc. But there were other times there were no children/people in sight and a spade would be left in the sand and i had no problem with ds playing with it. we left it where we found it and never had anyone return asking for it.

Before anyone accuses me of being a mean mummy, we did also always take our own buckets/spades/balls etc too.

i could understand the angst if something were reduced from the toy if it was used when someone else wasn't playing with it. But nothing is diminished from a plastic bucket if someone else plays with it while left.

Also it is not the same as 'borrowing it' which would imply the item was removed. Ie in the lawn mower analogy above. As long as it stays in the same location and is relinquished when requested then i couldn't get myself worked up about it.

OP, if you were offering around a plate of biscuits or cakes would you courteously offer them to everyone, or not to the fat people on the basis that you'd know what their answer ought to be?

This seems like that - because you think the answer ought to be 'yes' (and you could be right very often, because it is nice if everyone shares) when someone asks if they can play with a toy, you think you can dispense with the question, or play with things anyway if you're unable to ask the question really easily because something seems abandoned.

I think you're missing the point that asking is part of being courteous and respectful of other people and teaching your children to do so is teaching them something important. The process of asking has value in itself, it isn't made unnecessary by you thinking you know what the answer will be or what it ought to be. Even if you have to walk away from a toy you're pretty sure it won't offend anyone for you to play with, sometimes children need to see the principle of asking first taking priority.

Its still borrowed in the same way. Someone else is physically using it somewhere in the sandpit. Which means the owner then has to go and look for it and maybe have to ask for it back. No different whatsoever.

If I put my bike up against the wall in the park without locking it, whilst I went to play with the kids, would it be ok for another adult to start cycling it, as long as they stayed in the immediate area? What if I leave my car unlocked? Ok for someone to sit in it to shelter from the rain, or maybe sleep? After all, nothing is diminished from that is it?

Where are you drawing the line? Its on monetary value, and strangers don't have the right to make that decision for others.

Whatisaweekend- I think we go to the same places!

Brian - Why would the owner have to 'go and look for it' if it was in the same place?

Adults are different. But tbh i probably wouldn't mind at all if someone sat in my car for shelter from the rain . I remember where we used to live we'd leave our car unlocked and be driving along and find random children's toys in it (this was before we had ds). It turns out the local kids were using it as a play den when they were playing out, and would leave cars and things in it. After that we left it open all the time for them. One little boy told us (while playing in it) that we should lock it as 'a tramp could sleep in it' - i assume their parents had told them that while letting them play in it!

Why on earth do people imagine that you can somehow compare the trials and tribulations of managing babies, toddlers etc in a sandpit with theoretical scenarios involving adults and adult possessions?

An adult (hopefully) isn't going to see an object and instantly want to use it. An adult won't need to be told every few minutes that they mustn't touch it. An adult won't find they are constantly distracted from the fun they would otherwise be having by the.object lying there unused tempting them to play with it, and an adult will be able to rationalise all this into an understanding of ownership and possessions and make sense of it in the context of their experience of the world.

None of this is remotely true of my 20 month old, so remind me again why this hypothetical lawnmower/car/iphone is remotely relevant?

If you are at all worried about your child's bucket and spade then don't let them abandon it and wander off, take 2 seconds to pick it up and move it to wherever you are and none of this will be the slightest problem for you.

But for god's sake don't just leave it there and expect me to spend my entire time trying to stop my toddler going anywhere near it like it's the flipping Mona Lisa or something. To my mind the thoughtlessness of leaving another parent to deal with that situation far outweighs any "bad manners" of them letting their child use it.

gorionine - I don't think it is good manners to leave the stuff there and go out of sight for 20 mins either. If I saw an abandoned bucket like that I would assume that it was a) communal, belonging to the park or b) had been left and forgotten about days ago.

And you would be perfectly reasonable if you saw me leave stuff on the floor for 20 minutes 9which as far asI knpow I have never done) to tell me that I am bad mannered for doing so.

And it would be just as reasonable of me to say it was bad mannered to someone who would decide to let their children use mine toys without asking first.

Where are you drawing the line? Its on monetary value, and strangers don't have the right to make that decision for others.
I totally agree with you.

But how long is long enough? No one has answered that.

Wow, really shocked and surprised by some of these comments. We go to a playground almost every day with HUGE sandpits. In general, everyone uses everyone else's toys - usually without asking as they have been temporarily 'abandoned' so there's no one around to ask.

I was quite shocked the other day when my 19 month old picked up an abandoned spade and the mother walked other and took it out of his hand. She was not leaving, she just didn't want him to play with it!

When we leave, we usually spend 5 or 10 minutes searching for our toys, and apologizing that we have to take them home. Would hate to live in an area where this wasn't the norm.

Violet, why on earth would you need to apologise when needing your OWN things back ?

Brian - Why would the owner have to 'go and look for it' if it was in the same place?

Because its not in exactly the same place if you have to look around the pit for the child who has appropriated your child's toys. Unless your local sandpit is the size of a postage stamp. Which ours isn't. And it gets busy.

you snooze you lose

I wonder if that get applied to things in shops too?

one of this is remotely true of my 20 month old, so remind me again why this hypothetical lawnmower/car/iphone is remotely relevant?

Because you're teaching your child to co exist with others. You start small with that and continue to reinforce it.

Those who are against the other children using your toys, why on earth do you just leave them there? Child runs off to do something else call them back to tidy up their things, , child is a toddler? Run after them and pick them up and return to tidy away your things.
Why should your items be all over the sandpit if you aren't there playing with them.? This gives off the impression that you having a great time at the park is far more important than others who may want to play where you have already been.
I have never ever in my life imagined that someone would be annoyed with another child using a spade and bucket fgs.