To wonder why it's deemed acceptable to take children out of school for cheap holidays?

[shrunkenhead]

Am I the only one who thinks it's not on to make your child miss school for the sake of a cheap holiday???

"it was unheard of in the 60s and 70s to take holidays in term time."

I'm not so sure about that. Isn't it just that we're much more aware of things nowadays - in the 60s and 70s we didn't have MN the internet or GMTV to debate these things, and such an issue was hardly likely to make the 6 o'clock news. Also, far fewer people were likely to be able to afford to go abroad anyway and made do (or aspired to, if you like) a week's camping in this country.

We were strapped for cash in those days, according to my mother anyway, so in order for my parents to broaden our horizons and show us all the sights of Europe, we did it by camping. Great fun for us kids, but Hell on Earth (again, according to my mother) for my parents. I used to look at other families (not many though, and I grew up in an affluent area) who flew to Mediterranean resorts) and feel bit envious.

Like so much else in life, there are just too many variables for blanket rules or opinions on this.

Some children have parents who genuinely don't value their education and will regularly take them out of school to sit in a beach resort where they learn nothing. They will also not read to them, teach them about the world around them, and those weeks on the beach are the least of their worries.

Other children have parents who do very much value their education but can only take time off during term time, or have a family wedding, or cannot afford to go abroad during the school holiday. But they will spend a lot of time on that trip visiting cultural sites, or submerging the child in their second language or doing any number of things with more long-term educational value than a week in school. So those weeks out of school will also have little effect on their education.

So as I see it, either you're a parent who values their child's education or you're not. And either you will enhance their education at every given opportunity or you won't, and a few days out of formal education will make very little difference in light of the over-arching interest or lack thereof that a parent shows in their child's education.

On the few occasions my children have missed school for holidays, I have felt zero guilt about it as they have received an educational experience on their holiday. And I doubt that parents who only want a bit of sun and don't care about education feel any guilt either.

So why on earth is anyone else bothered?

"it was unheard of in the 60s and 70s to take holidays in term time."

Not unheard of in my class. I though was never allowed to go on holiday during term time. We only went on 1 holiday when I was 8 years old.

I had 100% attendance and left school with the no qualifications.
Dm worked long hours and was highly educated but we could not afford a holiday. So in my head I began to equate academic qualifications with being poor and I didn't want to be poor.

Still no idea what you are on about suburbanrhonda about me sounding superior!

And since I'm in Scotland where Ofsted doesn't apply and there is not such an obsession about perfect attendance and perfect school ratings, special measures won't exist because I assume that's something to do with Ofsted again, fines don't exist etc......a few weeks off school twice in 7 years hardly matters.

30 years ago I know loads of people taken out of school for holidays. We lived in an farming area and summer holidays were harvest time so the farming families always took time out at a different time.

I want to just throw in my vote on this subject to say I think in principle it should be OK to take your children out of school for family leisure activities.

There may be a few who do not value education and abuse the opportunity allowing children to miss a great deal of education throughout there school life - and, of course, I think that is not acceptable. But we should not all be punished because of those parents who do not value education.

Most of us do all we can to make sure our children are at school most of the time, especially as they get older.

There are, however, many good reasons and positive benefits for having family leisure time instead of going to school - sometimes.

Cost is a good point. Even thinking about cheap holidays in the UK - eg. for my family with 3 children to go "cheap" self catering caravan type holiday last week of summer holiday will cost over £1,000 just for accommodation, 2 weeks later same accommodation approx £300!

TBH, I actually didn't book either option because I do not want the children to miss school and I think over £1,000 to stay on a busy Haven holiday site is too much - especially as I live at the seaside in Kent and my sister lives in Devon! But I would not udge other people for their decisions.

Another good reason to miss school is where you are going. There are various events or places that you may want to visit that don't fit in with school holidays. e.g. perhaps too hot in summer, too cold at Christmas.

Holidays with families can be very educational depending on destination and activities involved.

Others have also made good points including when parents can get time off and value of family bonding and should state/school be entitled to dictate to the family to the extent that they now do.

BTW I have signed the online petition on this issue, there are over 200,000 signatures:
you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/reverse-the-changes-to-school-term-time-family-holiday-rules?bucket=&source=twitter-share-button

I'm not sure it is – people usually try and justify it when they do it – it’s not usually the first choice.

Both DH and I were taken out of school for family holidays during primary school in 1980's - wasn't unusual – we both managed to get good exams results and both are educated at post graduate level.

However we do try and not take our DC out during term time.

There can still be days missed despite this as we book 12 months in advance – it’s UK holiday but saves us 55% which is difference between going and not and we have go just before term starts back as it much cheaper. Friends due to work commitment go at Christmas abroad - book at least 12 months in advance have had similar issues being caught out.

We have both found the school and the local council don't always have the dates that far in advance available and the can vary slightly - and teacher training days can be move – as some terms start back end to mid-week these can be important - we've both been caught out by a few days.

It also does get annoying when we seem to have to do some much extra work to support our DC outside of school – fill in the gaps so to speak- and then DC tell you last week has been games or DVD’s but you can’t take them earlier as we’d be fined.

I took my dd1 all over when she was little in term time as I was a Sp and couldn't have afforded it otherwise.

She has a fab job and a great work ethic.

Life is for living.

We were in UK when my daughter was in reception, and we were moving to Aus before the next term/year, where they can start at 6....so I had no qualms about taking DD out of school for 2 days.

We went to Warwick Castle which ironically was heaving with school parties. We also went to Oliver Cromwells House which was empty yet much more educational!
(we were doing history tour before we left)

Seemed strange that we were illicitly taking a child out of school, but it seems to be a school trip destination!

Why don't parents/pupil just find out what they will be doing in lessons and make sure they catch up independently at home? It's fine to take children out IMO

I don't see the problem with missing school for a few days for a holiday. I know people who keep their children off for the flimsiest of reasons or just because their child doesn't feel like going. And yet other people suffer when they want a family holiday.

chesterberry (from way up thread but must reply!) Its a silly argument to suggest staff should afforded the same five days.

I used to teach secondary. When you enter into the profession you accept that you are locked into school holidays, that is part of the job - simple. Same as when one becomes a GP/Police etc they accept they will do shifts/callouts. I think it is mean to suggest that everyone else shouldnt have 5 days because staff can't. Afterall teachers get up to 13 weeks holiday a year. Teachers who also have family do not have the same level of expense of holiday clubs etc as other parent do, for some families this can run into several hundreds of pounds during the summer holidays.

Vivien you are absolutley right, the amount of notes I used to get as a form teacher because they were 'ill' when everyone in the form class knew it was because it was their birthday - see this as different to being able to affordable. a much needed family holiday.

We can't afford to take our whole family on holiday whatever time of year, so cries of 'we deserve a holiday' or claims that it is really educational ring a bit hollow to me.

I also remember being off sick from school and missing the lesson on long division and even though it was recapped a couple of weeks later my first thought when I hear about or need to use it is that I missed that lesson and that I don't feel as confident as I would like.

My DD is in yr1 and I see how much she progresses week by week and I feel it would have huge impact to miss a week.

I know I am in the minority though.

I used to teach secondary. When you enter into the profession you accept that you are locked into school holidays, that is part of the job

But when you enrol your child into school you should also accept that the school year is 39 weeks long and that your child is supposed to attend on the days that school is open, subject to being fit and well. We can't just pick and choose which school rules we wish to adhere to.

I don't like the 'entitlement' attitude that thinks a holiday is essential, but that's just me

Not just you - there are plenty of us out here

As someone said, at least "I want to take them out to get cheaper prices" is honest; it's also clearly the main concern for many, though countless lame excuses get dragged in to justify it - all of them utterly predictable and largely misguided

I also agree with the poster who remarked that we can't just pick and choose those rules we want to adhere to. This is something it's absolutely essential for young people to learn, though sadly too many parents fail to teach it; ironically, though, they're often the first to complain if the schools don't do exactly as they believe they should ...

Agree Puzzled - and I get sick of the 'holidays are educational' talk - yes, some holidays just might be educational but let's be honest - a week on a Spanish beach (not sneering - I love holidays like that) - is great fun but hardly 'educational'.

Puzzle, I agree - as I said upthread, I don't really understand why a holiday is now seen as something people are entitled to, even if it means taking their kids out of school to do it.

I see from all these threads that's there is clearly an issue with schools refusing leave for ill relatives, funerals, parents returning from working overseas etc which strikes me as wrong - those are exceptional circumstances.

But plenty of families can't afford a holiday at any time of the year, whether they went during term-time or not. To me, the sense of entitlement is from people who can afford a nicer holiday during term time as opposed to what they deem a less nice holiday during the school holidays.

If an adult can't afford a holiday around their work hours, should they start throwing sickies? Just not turn up? "I don't like the fact that I work in a job that requires cover 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, even though I signed up for that - I'll just not turn up over the Christmas period because I want to have a few days off"

If the government etc said that all kids were allowed 5 days off throughout the year, that would at least make it a level playing field.

I agree you can't pick or chose the rules you want to follow in such a simple fashion. We're fortunate enough to live in a country that provides free education for all children up until the age of 18 - people will probably flame me for this, but I think that means you have to accept the conditions of this free education, which is 39 weeks at school a year.

Ragwort - so if it WAS an educational holiday would you be OK with it?

Absolutely, Ragwort and Thurlow I also agree that there are genuinely exceptional cases; trouble is, as with the previous "10 days for special circumstances", too many parents come to see something as an entitlement and abuse it, as happened before - though they can't or won't see the connection

The "educational holiday" excuse tends to be the same; certainly some holidays fit this description, but of course they'd be just as "educational" if taken during school holidays. Sadly, for many it's just an attempt to justify their decision - like those who request work for the children to do on holiday and return it creased from spending two weeks in a suitcase, with a few lines scribbled for appearances' sake

In DCs junior school someone took their DCs on a 5 week hols to Florida during term time.

my friend asked for ONE day to take hers to somewhere as her mum who lives overseas was making a stopover flight to London and was refused !

my friend said sod it, and took her DC to see his gran (who he hardly ever saw) and was sanctioned a unauthorised absence.

AFAIK the Florida mum wasn't as she was a top nob of the PTA.

If an adult can't afford a holiday around their work hours, should they start throwing sickies? Just not turn up?

Unfortunately, during long experience I've seen this happen all too often. Nor do these employees expect any sanctions as a result - they're very hot on parroting their "rights" (often inaccurately) but perhaps not quite so concerned about their responsibilities

I had no way of knowing whether they were taken on holiday in term time or not - but that's certainly what I meant about setting an example for childrens' future lives

Puzzled

I totally agree with your point whole heartedly.
Our dd is H.ed and we are going to Rome soon on an educational visit. Although I usually follow an unstructured approach, I have lots of work to take with us to make sure dd gets the benefit.
Of course we will have lots of fun too, but we plan to include History, RE, Art, Geography, and of course music with tickets to the opera
We could do this in school hols as you suggest would usually be the case, but as we aren't tied to this, took advantage of cheaper prices.

impatient

I understand what you're saying about having an independent panel. However, I view the fact that HTs often know the family well as a good thing, not a bad one, but that could be because the HTs I work with are both excellent. They have often taught the older siblings themselves and have kept abreast of how they're doing as they get older. So my thinking is that a HT who knows the back story is more likely to grant an absence. Obviously, if the HT knows that the current children are second generation non-attenders it might be different decision!

Also, Education Welfare, while not part of the school, is normally part of the LA, so they would not be independent. They are the body responsible for issuing court proceedings, but cannot do it if the school has authorised the absence. The other barrier to having EW do this job is that, as I mentioned before, many academies are not buying back the EW service from the LA. Our local secondary school, an academy, does it all in-house.

Some people might argue that if you are taking your child out of school for a cheaper holiday, you are not acting in their best interests.

And those people would be wrong.

No, brdgrl, those people would have a different opinion from you.

AFAIK the Florida mum wasn't as she was a top nob of the PTA.

I'd be really surprised if this was the case unless the school was exceptionally badly led and managed.