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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think JSA is insultingly low amount

317 replies

brt100 · 21/05/2014 11:47

I mean 72 pounds a week is a joke, and you will loose 20% of that if you had an average paying job for half of the tax year.

Around here the daily rate wouldn't even cover the daily bus ticket to get to interviews.

OP posts:
PartialFancy · 23/05/2014 19:32

And actually Viviennemary, when negotiating pay rises people do cite their circumstances - along the lines of "I can't afford to stay in this job unless you give me a pay rise because..."

That's certainly how it goes in the private sector; even in the public sector there may be grades to bid for.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 23/05/2014 19:33

How much is a family expected to live on? Nobody knows

Grin

I knew that's what you were after. Well i've seen you on these threads before and people have shares their incomes on them so i know you've seen figures. Howeer those figures clearly didnt satisfy your sense of outrage enough so you need different ones. Well i'm not going to indulge you. I'd advise others not to either, unless they like having their income and spending scrutinised and having a certain type of poster tell them how they could live on 50p if they werent so feckless and workshy.

Viviennemary · 23/05/2014 19:41

Nobody is expected to live on 50p a week. But I expect you know differently.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 23/05/2014 19:45

Oh dear lord!

samsam123 · 23/05/2014 19:49

i have had to stop work to care for my mother try living on carers allowance of £60 a week - i know its slightly different situation but £60

theywillgrowup · 23/05/2014 19:57

Hang on, have i read this properly, hedgewiggy is TTC with a man she doesnt live with whilst having no job

totally agree the poster has done nothing but give false figures,and information,then it turns out she's trying to play the system to her advantage in the future Hmm

naty1 · 23/05/2014 20:19

I have never given my circumstances to get a pay rise. We were reviewed on our achievements.
I would be annoyed if my work were being swayed by that.
Careers allowance sounds awful i truly hope i never have to
35 hrs for less than JSA.
Surely if the person would quality for state care they should pay the carer a proportion of that
I would say a cap on CB to first 3 kids (unless twins etc). Going forward.

22honey · 23/05/2014 20:43

'People in jobs don't get a pay rise because their circumstances are different '

No, but they will get the extra child benefit if they have children (providing they dont earn too much to qualify, in which case they dont need it anyway) and if they qualify already extra CTC? Again extra benefits are awarded to those who need it ie the unemployed/sick etc and low paid. If you are well off why would you need any financial 'benefit' from the state?

Darkesteyes · 23/05/2014 20:44

Yes naty1 Because it costs absolutely no money to move house No sireee Not at all Hmm

22honey · 23/05/2014 21:08

naty, what about an accidental fourth pregnancy? Should women be forced to abort or their child starve or taken off them (not something to be taken likely as it affects childrens lives in a profound way and costs a fortune to boot)

Do you think its ethical to limit the amount of children poorer women can have? Especially given a household cannot get more than 26k anyway (and would actually get nowhere near that amount even with 3 children). I can't see how such a thing would do anything except punish women and children.

brt100 · 23/05/2014 23:40

Wanting it based on earnings is yet another entitled middle class mindset who again believes they should be entitled to more than everyone else because they are 'better' (ie were lucky enough to have a good job and education).

No its not its about wanting a real safety net. You can't expect everyone to live on the same amount. If someone looses their job they can't just upsticks and reduce all their fixed costs.

Like in Germany, 90% for first six weeks, and gradually running down until it runs out after 6 months.

You just sound like someone that hasn't contributed greatly and like the idea of everyone getting the same regardless of how much they have paid in.

OP posts:
LittleBearPad · 24/05/2014 07:57

22Honey. Richer women limit the number of children they have to ensure they can afford them. There's no ethical quandary here.

dashoflime · 24/05/2014 09:52

"People in jobs don't get a pay rise because their circumstances are different to the person at the next desk."

I think you may be misunderstanding the purpose of benefits.
Wages are based on the market value of the work someone is doing. Maybe based on negotiation (either individually or through a union)
Benefits exist because, as a society, we understand that the market alone isn't a good enough mechanism to provide for everyone's actual needs, by itself.
Some people have described benefits as a safety net. I don't think that's right. There should be an element of redistribution involved as well. That's why, for example, I receive a bit of Working Tax Credit towards my childcare costs even though I'm on a fairly good wage and don't need a "safety net." Society has taken the decision that it would be a good thing for children to be provided for and women to be in the workplace and redistributes money through tax credits for that purpose. Despite the recession, we are a first world country. We can afford it and a little bit more equality is good for society as a whole.

"Wanting it based on earnings is yet another entitled middle class mindset who again believes they should be entitled to more than everyone else because they are 'better' (ie were lucky enough to have a good job and education)"

Completely agree! Its like saying "Its OK for you to be skint- your used to it!" Its almost dehumanising in its callousness.

"Richer women limit the number of children they have to ensure they can afford them."

Aghh! I have a special hatred for this argument. For society to work efficiently we need a stable population level, or ideally a slight decrease in population between generations. What would be disastrous is a steep fall between one generation and the next. If everyone only had children they could "afford" this is exactly what would happen. Those "richer women" would find there was no one to wipe their arses and spoon feed them their food when they got old. Luckily for them it will never happen because realistically we are not going to stop people having children, its a human drive. There will be children. The only proper question is how, as a society, we provide for them.

Interestingly- the "don't do it if you can't afford it" line is only ever applied to poor people. I could just have easily pointed out to brt100 that richer people have had the opportunity to insure themselves against unemployment or illness and to build up savings. I could have questioned why anyone who has been in the position to make these contingency plans should receive benefits at all if they have failed to do so. It would be consistent with the "poor people shouldn't have children" line.
But I won't do that. Because I understand that we live in the real world in which people are fallible and do things for all sorts of odd, human reasons. And that when you are making social policy for an entire country, you have to deal with people as they are not as you would ideally like them to be

LittleBearPad · 24/05/2014 10:40

People should consider whether they can afford to have children. If events happen subsequent to the children being born that mean further support is needed then the state should help to provide it. But people aren't providing a public service when they have children. The state does not pay people to have children. The world is over-populated as it is with massive environmental problems resulting from the over-population. The population of the Uk is not in decline.

Finally don't do it if you can't afford it applies to all people. For example it's the basis of mortgage applications that ask people how they will cope with 50bps/100bps rise in interest rates. What will happen if one of the applicants falls ill etc. It's cobblers that that rule only applies to poorer members of society.

HappyMummyOfOne · 24/05/2014 10:57

The benefits system is in a state, some of the changes are good but it's still a mess. Whilst there will be a small number who use to as intended, a stop gap after a change in circumstances, there are many many more that choose it as a lifestyle. Be it income support as they have a child/children, tax credits as they want a SAHP/more children than their salary can afford etc or HB as they want a larger house or in a better area than they can afford themselves.

Personal responsibility seems to have gone out of the window for many. They don't see if their salary allows them x children or for them not to work but go to the benefits calculator to see how much extra they will get from the state. Contraception is freely available and methods can be used together yet the number of "accidental" pregnancies is outstanding.

I would agree that those paying into the system for years should get higher JSA than somebody with few contributions. It would recognise the difference between the two categories.

IS should be scrapped, mums who work get 12 months maternity but those that don't get five years and even then get switched to JSA so more benefits or they have another child to avoid it. All women should be treated the same not singled out as they chose to do the right thing and work to support their child.

Tax credits need to go. If we need to assist with childcare fine but paying people to have children they can't afford or to pick and choose how little they work is madness.

It needs to go back to a welfare state. Min payment that covers food, heat and shelter.

dashoflime · 24/05/2014 11:17

Children are not a public service but they are a public concern.
There are lots of things that individuals can't easily finance on their own but that we can finance together as a society (e.g: healthcare).
The cost of children is arguable one of those things because of the impact to someones earning potential of time off work to raise them, family friendly hours, childcare etc.
So it makes sense to make some kind of collective provisions for children through a benefits system. The people at a different stage in their lives (younger people without responsibilities, older people who have paid off their mortgage etc) can contribute towards the costs associated with the next generation.
I agree that overpopulation is a problem- but we don't need a sharp decline. And if all working class people stopped having kids (as some posters like to suggest) a sharp decline is what we would get. And then where would the working age population be in 30-40 years time to support us as pensioners or the next generation of poorer children?

"It's cobblers that that rule only applies to poorer members of society."
brt100 suggested that higher earners should get more JSA- I was responding to her.

"Whilst there will be a small number who use to as intended, a stop gap after a change in circumstances, there are many many more that choose it as a lifestyle."

If that lifestyle is "working poor" then I agree Happymummy- after pensioners, they are statistically the largest group of benefits recipients.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 24/05/2014 11:17

Excellent post dashoflime

Viviennemary · 24/05/2014 11:18

I agree that tax credits should be scaled down and eventually phased out. It was a totally mad idea and only allowed employers to pay less and less.

dashoflime · 24/05/2014 11:24

Also I'm not sure what "as intended" means. The benefits system is quite complex and has been shaped by many different social policy aims.

Off the top of my head I can think of benefits which are "intended" to:

Encourage low paid work (tax credits)
Redistribute money from men to women (child benefit)
Subsidise the extra costs of disability (DLA)
Encourage people with health problems into work (Employment and Support Allowance)
Provide a basic standard of living to people with insufficient income (Income Support)
Place indirect pressure downward pressure on the private rented market (the bedroom tax in housing benefit)

There isn't one thing that benefits are "intended" to do- except i suppose to provide money for people who meet the qualifying criteria of that particular benefit

StarDustInTheWind · 24/05/2014 11:25

£75.72 pw....... I work 12 hours on NMW..... a whole £3.72 more for slogging away in a shop (and have to spend £17 a week to get there and back) ...

but the way I understand it, should things change and I become unemployed, I wouldn't get JSA anyhow .... I haven't earned enough lately to pay NI for contributions based.. and am married to someone who earns too much for income based.....

OP, in your situation, £72 seems good .... compared to £0....

dashoflime · 24/05/2014 11:25

Thanks Sillybilly Smile

StarDustInTheWind · 24/05/2014 11:35

Sorry, my above post sounds bitter...

just didn't realise working so hard gave so little - only part time I know - but it is what is available out there .... 0 to 14 hour contracts, I was lucky to get 12 hr fixed

Aspiringhuman · 24/05/2014 11:37

If tax credits were abolished I think it would just plunge more people into poverty because I think employers would still pay low wages. IME a large number of employers regard their employees as robots rather than humans. In anticipation of arguments low pay does not equal not working hard. 1000s of low paid people work very hard.

PartialFancy · 24/05/2014 13:29

If ESA is intended to "Encourage people with health problems into work", then what is the benefit for people whose health means they cannot work, and will in no way be helped by "encouragement" (a euphemism for pressure)?

Eg Ivan Cameron, had he survived to adulthood.

Changing the name from Incapacity Benefit has changed the supposed "intention" of the benefit. To something completely unrealistic.

Darkesteyes · 24/05/2014 15:40

Great posts Dashoflime.

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