To refuse to pay school fees having withdrawn my dc because..

[bluestrawhat]

the person we were told would be the dcs' form teacher did not actually perform this role and instead left the class with a TA. This happened for 7 months without parents being informed and without the knowledge of the head teacher but with the knowledge of the deputy head. Mean time pastoral issues have been passed on by the supposed class teacher variously to other members of staff and TAs and there has been bullying which we think has not been dealt with adequately because the children are not clear who their form teacher actually is. Having tried to deal with these issues and received an apology from the head but not from the other teachers involved we decided to move schools and have not paid fees which the school is now pursuing. What is our position? TIA

Well, there's nothing in the contract that covers this eventuality which all parties agreed was very unusual.

"...they don't need to employ qualified teachers & could hire, well, anyone who passed a CRB check, basically, to act as form tutor."

This is also the case for free schools and academies.

So the fact that a TA did the role will be irrelevant to your case.
It has to be a breach of the contract I think. So, wihout knowing what the contract says it is impossible to say if you would have a case or not.

On the other hand, the school said we would get a particular class teacher and we didn't. It is also in breach of its anti-bullying policy. This is surely evidence of failings in pastoral care and management.

The exact or even similar situation may not be in the contract.

However, to fight the not paying you do need to show they broke the contract in some way.

It may be that they did not provide your child with an adequate eductaion, or they were not able to keep your child safe r something else.

That is what you need to look at and see where, in your opinion, they broke that contract and then you need to build your case against this.

You may be lucky. The school may decide to cut their losses and lave it. But many schools will go to court over something like this. If that occurs you have t be prepared an dhave a case built to act on.

If children, parents and the head does not know who has responsibility for the pastoral care of a particular class this looks like a breach of duty of care to me no?

"the school said we would get a particular class teacher and we didn't."

That often occurs so would be irrelevant. Schools can not guarantee that your child will always keep the same class teacher throughout. This owuld not, ime, form part of the contract.

Indeed, Hulababy - I know of one academy that has small, vertical tutor groups with every TA having their own as well as the teachers.

Thanks hula. You talk a lot of sense.

Could it not also be seen as a safeguarding issue?

but raven that's ok if everyone knows what they're getting. This is someone just deciding not to do part of his job.

"It is also in breach of its anti-bullying policy. "

This would come under not keeping your child safe at school. So, if it went to court that is what you could use as your reasoning behind it. So, you would build a case around this issue.

"If children, parents and the head does not know who has responsibility for the pastoral care of a particular class this looks like a breach of duty of care to me no?"

The ultimate would be going to the HT or pastoral head if they have one. They have overall pastoral care for the all the children.

The breach of dty of care would again be as a bove - not keeping your child safe at school.

Safeguarding?

Not sure. Depends whether you feel your child was at risk at the school or in danger.

Again - you would need to look at your contract and build the case surrounding this.

Depends what your contract says but I doubt you will be able to persuade the court you should be let out your notice period.

'If children, parents and the head does not know who has responsibility for the pastoral care of a particular class this looks like a breach of duty of care to me no?'

But if the named teacher has continued as point of contact, referring pastoral care issues on to colleagues but delegating the taking of the register to a TA, that person still does have responsibility, surely?

I can see why you are pissed off. But I don't think this is an automatic breach of contract. As everyone else says, you need to get legal advice based on the contract. They're a business, & they aren't going to stay in business if they let every aggrieved parent withhold owed fees.

Does the school have a waiting list? If so, then presumably they should be able to fill dts' places quickly and only suffer minimal loss? (Need legal expert here to confirm but I have a vague feeling that you can only sue for genuines losses incurred and need to take reasonable steps to minimise these losses.)

If not ie the school is not full then they probably don't want a nice public court case about whether or not the school was just mediocre crappy or so crappy that they are in breach of contract crappy. It doesn't look good especially as newspapers lurrrve to say nasty things about elitist private schools.

You could offer a small amount of money and agree to sign a confidentiality document where you will not speak negatively about the school in future.

'But if the named teacher has continued as point of contact, referring pastoral care issues on to colleagues but delegating the taking of the register to a TA, that person still does have responsibility, surely?'

Well, there was at least one case where there was no response. The concern was not passed on and there was no response. This is in breach of the anti-bullying policy and is evidence that the pastoral system was not working (as the form teacher wasn't doing his job).

Mumoftwoyoungkids - ime this is not the case. Many schools will push for this as they do not want word to get round that they are an easy target. It would only go to the press if one of the parties decided to push for it. Unlikely the school would, so that would be down to the OP - but would the OP really want to have her finances and personal information published for all to read I wouldn't!

Independent schools are businesses. They would not exist if they let people get away without paying up.

I think your case is about the break down of trust, which means you cannot have confidence in the school going forward and htat they have effectively broken their contract with you by providing a substandard service for 7 months. That seems reasonable to me, given what you've written, but you will need legal advice as to whether it is likely to be seen as sufficient if it got to court.

Morally I agree with your stance, but you need legal advice not AIBU!

One email not promptly answered is unlikely to be sufficient grounds to break a contract. Presumably you followed it up at the time - to HOY, Head of Pastoral? deputy head? Other SMT? Head? How many emails were ignored, and when did this happen? (not trying to ask for detail that might out you, rather how the timings fit with your Dc departure date from the school and ordinarily required notice period.

'This is in breach of the anti-bullying policy and is evidence that the pastoral system was not working (as the form teacher wasn't doing his job).'

Yes, but is there anything in your contract with them that says 'in the event that we ever breach any of our internal school policies, we waive our right to extract fees from you'?

I'm going to guess there isn't - or no unhappy customer would ever pay up. As Hulababy says, they won't want to set a precedent of allowing, or being seen to allow, parents to move their children without paying punitive fees; their whole business model relies on parents being 'locked in'.

So we are talking about 15 minutes a day? Has it crossed your mind that each child will have a preference for which teacher they may want to go to for advice or support. It's very unlikely to be the "assigned" person just because they do the register.

It sounds to me like you are just looking to make a case and a drama about something which is absolutely less that a percentage of an issue.

You even said that it's not that it was someone else but that you hadn't been told. Rarely are parents on speed dial over staffing arrangements. You child was being supervised and the stand in was fulfilling the role (and the school theirs) so I can't see the issue...other than the fact you weren't notified of course

Of course you should pay any money in the contract. Your child wasn't in danger and was being taught by them. Registration is hardly the key to exam success. Maybe pick a school that will let you sit in on interviews next time?

I don't think you've grasped the seriousness of the situation Carryon.

The head did agree the form teacher was at fault and, in fact, has asked for him to leave at the end of the year. You can't simply decide you don't fancy a significant part of your job as a teacher (or in any job).

Our argument is that the bullying and other pastoral problems our dts experienced were caused in part by the lack of a trained, qualified form teacher and a consequence of pastoral issues being dealt with ad hoc by different members of staff with different approahces.

A form teacher is a basic expectation in most, if not all, schools.

It wasn't a late response to an email it was an allegation of bullying that did not gain a response. At all. This is a serious failing in breach of the school's anti bullying policy and probably national guidelines.

To clarify also we were paid up to date at the point our children left school. We have not paid fees after this point since our children are no longer in school and, in our view, the school is to blame for our decision to withdraw them because they failed to provide adequate pastoral care and there is evidence of serious failings in the management and pastoral system of the school.

"It wasn't a late response to an email it was an allegation of bullying that did not gain a response. At all. This is a serious failing in breach of the school's anti bullying policy and probably national guidelines."

Was it just one email that wasn't answered? Or more?
Did you chase it up? Did you get a response to that?
What are the timings linked to it all?

If only one email I don't think it will be enough. Very easy for one email to be missed if staff are receiving many. how many of us here have missed the odd email here or there. I know I have. One email would be easy for the school to say it was a genuine mistake.

You need more evidence - you need the follow ups, evidence that it was not acted on....etc.

Yes, exactly, Boom. A break down of trust which meant out dts continuation at the school became impossible. We also felt that our complaints were being taken out on them and they were becoming increasingly distressed.

One email but part of a pattern of bullying from the same child over months. Not adequately dealt with. Ongoing concerns from a number of other parents about both the bullying and the school's response to it.