to be regretting third child and feeling have messed everything up - advice from academics especially welcome

[fantastickfox]

I have just had my third baby, so aware I am probably sleep deprived and hormonal. He is a beautiful baby (obviously) and easy so far in comparison to my others. Before I had him I obsessed for about two years about having another child, I felt incomplete and so sad at the thought of having no more - I would get panicky thoughts about my 2 children just being the two of them and what if something happened to one of them leaving the other alone, etc. I could not bear the thought of never being pregnant/ giving birth again, it really did preoccupy me and I am generally, I think, a reasonable rational person. I have to admit I pressurised my partner into this and it was not what he wanted really, which I feel very bad about.

Now, however, it is only just beginning to hit me what a huge and irreversible thing I have done. I love my baby obviously but I am starting to realise what should have been obvious before but I couldn't see about the effect this will have on our family, our older children (5 and 3) not being able to do things we were just beginning to do easily eg take them swimming and on holiday, and I feel I have let them down. I know these things are maybe relatively minor and I have lost perspective a bit in the post natal period. Most of all I feel I have let my partner down, he is a devoted dad but if it wasn't for me would have waited to have children. He is a post-doc and as a result of choosing to settle down when we did has been unable to follow the standard career path of lots of short term contracts in different places worldwide which I understand is almost expected, He has stayed in the same place since we had our eldest child and feels his career has suffered as a result, along with the impact of having children and being able to put in fewer hours, as a result of which he has not got as many good publications as he would have wanted and has been unable to secure a lectureship. The third child thing has not actually altered this state of affairs, but probably isn't going to help. I feel I have messed things up for everyone and don't know what to do. I have suggested (many times) he go and work away eg in the states for a bit, but he is reluctant to leave the kids and says we can't afford it and it is too late.

Would really appreciate both advice in general about the impact of the third child on managing to keep doing things with the older 2 without them missing out, but also perspectives of any academics as I am not in that world and only have my partner's experience to go on. Sorry for long post!
W

Hi, thanks for the advice. My OH does have lots of transferrable skills, and a lot of what he does also takes place in industry so he could conceivably go and work for a company. The only problem is most jobs are not in the area of the country where we live and he seems to think he would have to go back to a graduate starting salary though that may not be the case. I have suggested teaching as an option but I think he sees this as a sign of failure (I don't!)

I think the problem is being unsure what to do, which ends up being a catch 22 as you cannot dedicate all your brainpower to your current job as a post doc when you also at the same time have to be thinking and worrying about future options.

Thanks for all the third child advice, too, I am just feeling overwhelmed by it all thinking wtf have I done when it was just getting easier, but then before i was so unhappy wanting a third and feeling guilty for not just being happy with what we've got. I know it will get easier - the baby is only 2 weeks old and hopefully as others have said by the time he is walking things will seem more normal.

My DH took a pay cut to go back into industry - a few places that offered did want him back at graduate salary but he eventually found one that paid more but was still a significant pay cut and a move for us all.

He did two years in end - we thought it would be longer but company hit bad patch and let a significant proportion of their work force go and as we'd bought a house and had DC in school didn't want to move. So he looked in both academic and industry. Got two more post locally- slightly above usual post docs plus he'd also done research and published while working - stuff with friends and finishing projects and he'd made useful contacts.

Having the research and industry experience meant he got interviews for lectureships though it took another two jobs before he got a post he wanted and we could afford for him to take- his dream job in the end. Compromised there was we stuck here still and he works away during week and we are planning a move.

So industrial experience if you can take the pay cut might be a huge way of getting ahead or taking a post that mean he works away part or all of the week. There are options and frankly I don’t know many couples, families with one in academia who haven’t had to deal with the compromises at some point to get ahead. I'm not sure any of them did everything right.

I have suggested teaching as an option but I think he sees this as a sign of failure (I don't!)

One of our friends who was sick of post doc route went into secondary teaching - his other half was a teacher. He was in a subject area where there are huge shortages. He couldn’t find work in the end in the city so ended back up on post doc route at same department.

I don't think the teaching qualification hurt him - though he went into an industry job later anyway rather than academia.

The problem isn't the third child, it's his unwillingness to compromise. No, he's probably not going to have a permanent position just turn up at his doorstep without moving, unless he gets very lucky. So what is he prepared to do? Go to a university in a peripheral region of Europe and negotiate working from home as much as possible, if he needs experience abroad. It might only be for two years.

Thanks, it is a relief to know that other people have combined having families with academic careers or finding satisfaction outwith academia, and that there is such a range of ways to do this. It did seem to me from what OH says that everyone else does things 'the right way'. I do know some of his colleagues who have had kids (most only one thus far) whilst post docs, but he has always tended to say that they were doing better/ had nearly made it at the time. I just think something has to change in terms of decisive action one way or the other, but I have been thinking this for the last few years. I feel like a fraud a lot of the time knowing our family life is not very settled and feel I am putting on a pretence to the outside world when I had no right to have kids in this situation. It seems that other people have done things properly, as a couple and seem happier and more settled than we are (obviously you never know what is going on for others in private though!)

One thing about your initial post struck me OP. Your DH being unable to publish because of the children. If he wants to research and publish he will. My DH (different profession entirely) forged his reputation when our DC were under 6. He just worked 70 hour + weeks because he was driven to. Don't let your DH guilt trip you to think he can't publish because of the DC - if he wants to he will put in the graft to do it. Don't let him use his family as an excuse. At these ages you can also transfer around the country a few times.

In this academic climate though he will almost certainly not get a lectureship if he doesn't have the research that complies with a 3* ref rating. Let's be sensible - probably a third of universities will close/merge in response to the funding changes. Only the fittest will survive.

Hi nearthe windy, yes my dh works v long hours, often does not get home till 830 or 930, works at weekends. However, often he feels he is not being productive/ achieving anything, which may be to do with him, may be to do with worry/ lack of sleep from kids (though often he sleeps in the spare room!) He has always been very prone to being affected by non-ideal working conditions (wrong light, etc!) even before we had kids, I think ideally he needs to be in an ivory tower with someone making his bed/ meals etc!

out of interestr what is a 3* ref rating?

I think academia is very hard at the moment. One of my very good friends is horribly up in the air at the moment. He's worked in Europe, America and is currently a research fellow at a Russell Group university. He's had two back to back jobs there, but is now interviewing all over the place and not really getting anywhere. There is one job he could have at his current university, and there are two of them in his research group going for it.

On top of that, I know he's starting to panic about his life outside work - his partner's almost ten years younger and is just finishing her PhD. She wants to have an academic career, so doesn't want to end up tied down by marriage and children so early on, but he's really starting to think about it.

So he obviously hasn't gone about it the 'right way' either!

I think academia is one of those horrible jobs where bigger compromises than other fields are made, with less money at stake! Your husband shouldn't be making you feel bad about it though (your hormones are clearly managing to as well!). I think setting a time limit is a good idea, and he could at least have a look at industry/teaching just to see what is available.

Oh, and I'm one of three with similar age gaps, and it's great, really it is. I can't even remember ever missing out on swimming etc. so, while I'm sure I did when my DB was tiny, it hasn't had any impact!

I am really puzzled by this idea that having children has somehow messed up his career. He was there when they were conceived, yes?

Why is he putting this on to you? He is the one doing or not doing the research, preparing or not preparing for his seminars, doing or not doing the reading....

What is really stopping him doing a ground-breaking piece of published work right here, right now?

All of us have huge potential, if only we put our mind to it. I had a three-quarters finished draft novel hanging around for the best part of three years. I finished it in just a few weeks when I was pregnant, because I had a fixed deadline and I was suddenly highly motivated to do it.

I am not an academic but have just finished doing a masters degree, beginnning the course alongside a new part time job, a non-sleeping two year old and very little additional childcare beyond attending the sessions. If you really want to do something, you do.

Worth a million trips to soft play

Nothing on earth is worth a trip to soft play.

www.ref.ac.uk/

Many universities are insisting on high potential ref scores for publications that might be entered into it for lecturer level appointments. An early career researcher might need only one or two outputs.

Vis the three children OP, just to let you know, I have two older teenagers. I have one regret in my life and that is not having the courage to have a third. Was a bit of a long journey for us and I look back on that decision with sadness. They are 16 and 19 now.

Good luck love, you deserve it and don't forget three under six is effing hard, especially when one's still a baby so keep it in perspective.

I don't know anything about academia, but I have a strong sense from your posts that your DH is making excuses for the fact that his career is not currently exactly as he would like it to be.

Same issue re third child concerns here, reluctant Dh, who works long hours, even though I earn more part time - although we got twins, so baby 3 and 4! Its been bloody tough and at 9 months, I still get feelings of what have I done, guilt that my older dcs (5 and 3) have less time with me and watch more TV than they used to pre babies, and in low moments, feelings of regret. I am hoping that it gets easier.

It sounds like he's not cut out for academia and is trying to blame you and the DCs.

OP I am an academic currently 4 years into first permanent lectureship and going for readership next year. I strongly agree with Windy who talks much sense! Everyone I know who gets short listed is REFable at 3-4 stars.

And....I wrote my first REFable publications in coffee shops, on trains, in my student bedroom. I now work on the kitchen table with next door's TV faintly audible. My boss, who made professor by 39, wrote his first two books locked in his spare room on Saturday mornings whilst his DW sorted the littlies downstairs.

I really don't want to sound like I have a downer on your DH but do you think maybe he is not cut out for the academy?

Because it doesn't get easier, take it from me. I did a 5 year lectureship at a Russell G whilst publishing my arse off to get this permanent gig - now I am still publishing like billy-o whilst networking like a lunatic and serving on any committee that will let me in the door as I need to keep my cv portable because, as Windy so rightly says, we are entering the apocalypse and if you are not in the game you may well get chopped. It is already happening around the country.

Does he want to live with this degree of pressure for the next 15 years? That is what a permanent job means and in all kindness, it doesn't sound like he will cope well with that.

If he is working long hours but not publishing, what is he doing? Is his teaching workload too high or is he putting too much work into it? Or is he actually writing articles which aren't getting accepted? Or putting in lots of funding bids? He is getting lots of time to work, so you need to work out why this isn't enough to be making progress at getting publications and funding.

Hi, I don't want to give too much away about what he does but he spends quite a lot of time trying to get a particular application his current group is working on to work/ improve results, in order to get to a point where there is something to publish. Often I think a lot of time is invested and results are not what he hoped for. That is my understanding anyway. He has just this weekend been working on a funding application for a project funded by industry and seems quite inspired/ optimistic re this - if they get it it may be a way to move away from full time academia which may be a relief, but again it would not be permanent so don't know how much things would change in terms of security,

Your H is probably unconsciously trying to feel out other paths to follow--and he'd be WISE to do so. Academia is relentless and hard, hard, hard. And even harder for the families. There is no mercy, and those that are willing to make the big sacrifices seem to flourish the most.

DH is a senior academic (professor) at the moment. We up-sticks from another country to move here for his position 3 years ago and the work for him is never ending, even at the top. We only have the one DS. I have contemplated/rationalised/gone on and off ttc-ing for the past few years in an attempt to have a second child but I think the failure of that was Mother's Nature's way of saying "give it up, it's not worth it."

We have a very interesting life in that we get lots of opportunity to travel around with H on conferences, obviously living abroad, but the upside of that is that we are in our early 40s and still renting, have periods of several weeks a year where we don't see H at all while he travels to conferences during term time, we live 4000+ miles away from DS's grandparents and I have not be able to establish a steady career of my own b/c of the constant need to move around.

So if the academia thing doesn't pan out for your H, consider it a lucky break for YOU and your family.

You have no way of knowing where life would have led you if you had delayed having children / not had a third. At every junction, we have choices and at the next junction, there will be different factors influencing how we make those choices. Your baby number three made it here against the odds (logic would dictate that 2 is more sensible) that makes him very special, he probably has a mission. Your DH may well ambitions, but he has to make that happen, just like you felt compelled to have a third child (my urge to have a third was stronger than my desire to have a first or a second!!).

Your DH has only worked for a relatively short period in his life, many people start new and subsequently successful careers later in life. It is ridiculous to think that the years between 25 and 35 are the only important ones.

If your DH is working 70 hours plus a week and is not being productive, it is not his children that are effecting his lack of output, it is his lack of output!! It brings to mind the phrase.... It's not the dress that makes you look fat, it's your fat that makes you look fat.

TBH your DP sounds a bit precious.My OH did things the "wrong" way- degree, Phd then post doc at same institution then didn't move very far to another Uni where he did a post doc then got a research fellowship off his own bat then used it as leverage to secure a lectureship on its completion. Things are tough in academia at the moment but as RevoltingPeasant says it really doesn't get any easier with a permanent position. My OH works very hard- I've learnt to ignore him when he says "things will be easier when..........this student finishes/I get this grant/the paper gets published".

Re Ref- Researchers are given a star rating based on the quality and quantity of their research. Put together they effect the amount of money the Uni gets from central Government. OH was a 4* researcher when he secured his job and I think that's fairly standard at the moment.

I really don't see how his work issues can be your (or your DCs) fault. I think one of then main problems with having a family and working in academia is the reduced hours you're able to work but you said he works 70 hours a week so that shouldn't be a problem!!! I'd insist on agreeing on a time limit to keep at it before doing something else. Congratulations on your new baby!!(and stop blaming yourself!!!)

Just to clarify something posted above: individual researchers don't actually get an individual star rating. Departments get rated by the REF process. Individuals might get an idea of how their research might be rated, if the department chooses to share informal assessments with them, but that is by no means a given.

But if researchers apply for a Lecturer job Janine it is likely that their work will be assessed by the hiring university and if it doesn't meet the ref criteria they will not reach the short-list.

Indeed, NearTheWindy - but my point is that nobody knows exactly what their individual REF rating is. Hiring committees can make educated guesses or predictions, but they are merely that.

Yes but if you have a long-list of six and you have it externally assessed, no-one with a rating of less than 3* overall is going to make the short-list. The individuals don't know but the DVCs and the Deans know how people are ranking.

the DVCs and the Deans know how people are ranking.

Do you mean in job applications/shortlisting? It's not the norm, for entry-level lectureships, to have applicants externally assessed.

My point still stands - these are educated guesses/predictions as to how the REF panel might rate an individual submission.