to be regretting third child and feeling have messed everything up - advice from academics especially welcome

[fantastickfox]

I have just had my third baby, so aware I am probably sleep deprived and hormonal. He is a beautiful baby (obviously) and easy so far in comparison to my others. Before I had him I obsessed for about two years about having another child, I felt incomplete and so sad at the thought of having no more - I would get panicky thoughts about my 2 children just being the two of them and what if something happened to one of them leaving the other alone, etc. I could not bear the thought of never being pregnant/ giving birth again, it really did preoccupy me and I am generally, I think, a reasonable rational person. I have to admit I pressurised my partner into this and it was not what he wanted really, which I feel very bad about.

Now, however, it is only just beginning to hit me what a huge and irreversible thing I have done. I love my baby obviously but I am starting to realise what should have been obvious before but I couldn't see about the effect this will have on our family, our older children (5 and 3) not being able to do things we were just beginning to do easily eg take them swimming and on holiday, and I feel I have let them down. I know these things are maybe relatively minor and I have lost perspective a bit in the post natal period. Most of all I feel I have let my partner down, he is a devoted dad but if it wasn't for me would have waited to have children. He is a post-doc and as a result of choosing to settle down when we did has been unable to follow the standard career path of lots of short term contracts in different places worldwide which I understand is almost expected, He has stayed in the same place since we had our eldest child and feels his career has suffered as a result, along with the impact of having children and being able to put in fewer hours, as a result of which he has not got as many good publications as he would have wanted and has been unable to secure a lectureship. The third child thing has not actually altered this state of affairs, but probably isn't going to help. I feel I have messed things up for everyone and don't know what to do. I have suggested (many times) he go and work away eg in the states for a bit, but he is reluctant to leave the kids and says we can't afford it and it is too late.

Would really appreciate both advice in general about the impact of the third child on managing to keep doing things with the older 2 without them missing out, but also perspectives of any academics as I am not in that world and only have my partner's experience to go on. Sorry for long post!
W

I have 3 DCs with 3 years between each. Like you, I always wanted a 3rd child - for all the reasons you outlined. DH would have stopped at 2, but I persuaded him to go for number 3.

I have also thought "what have I done!?" It was really tough at first and I felt like DH & I were a tag team. I also felt like the older DCs were missing out on stuff because we just couldn't take them to things so easily. None of my friends had a 3rd child and they always seem to have more time to themselves, more time for their DCs and a lot less stress.

But...but....but....DC3 is just amazing and I can't imagine being without him. He is now 3 and it is so much easier. He is so lovable, chatty, confident and funny. The older 2 love playing with him and have begged me to have another baby (no way!). The DCs are a little gang and play together a lot. And although my house is noiser, messier and more chaotic than my friends, we have so much fun and laughter in it and I really wouldn't change it for the world.

Be gentle on yourself. It is tough but it will get easier. You have not let your older DCs and your DH down. You have given them all the best gift ever - an extra person to love and to be loved by.

NC as this makes me highly identifiable!

I'm having the same panic, only not over dc3 but 4. Currently pregnant, which was really something I talked dh into. DC aged 6, 4 and 2. For me, 3 dc has been brilliant. I like the dynamic much better than just 2, and it hasn't held my older ones back from doing anything at all. I am getting scared about 4 though, as things are just getting out of the baby stage again, and I realise that there will be 7 years between oldest and youngest, which is a big gap, and that for the whole of dc1's childhood practically, he will have shared me with a small baby. However, I do firmly believe that the advantages of having siblings will outweigh any disadvantages in terms of attention, money to spend etc.

My DH is an academic. Agree with what others have said about the nature of academia at the moment. I don't like his job, although obviously I don't know for a fact that it would be any easier if he did something else. I acknowledge that it's important to him. Moving around isn't essential, but there is the instability of not knowing where the next short contract is coming from. Eighteen months ago he got his first lectureship, which is permanent and full time, not to be sniffed at. It's been our first move (within the UK) and I still hate it and feel so homesick. I can't express how much I hate the place we live and want to go back home. It isn't the DC that have made this move difficult, it's my inability to settle, so having extra dc hasn't mattered in that respect.

It has been possible for us to get to lectureship without moving around too much, although in science fields it is more difficult I think - but have friends who have managed it, with only one big move the same as us. I think academia is just generally very difficult to balance with any life outside, and compromises have to be made, whatever choices you make in life, dc or no dc.

My DH is a HE lecturer - he didn't get a permanent job till 36 - most of his mates where around that age. We had 3 DC by then and DH was getting very panicky about it ever happening.

I think it depends on the field as to if jobs abroad are required - would have been in my field not so much in DH - though lots of moving round uk.

Even without DC it a nightmare - as most of DH friends are in couples and then your faced with moving or one giving up work or long commutes.

DH lectureship is great as it permant job but so so good as he so far away that he works away during the week and comes home weekends till we can all get down there - sell house and sort schools and get past his long probabtion period as well.

Regarding having 3 DC – it takes getting used to. Same as having one or two DC. Yes there are things you can no longer do or do easily but then there are others to still do and IME it does get easier as they all get older.

OP are you working then?

I am wondering if you could go back to work and let DH do part child are, part research and writing to boost his publications. Now is the time to do it, with the REF census not for circa 5 years.

On the other hand he may have to retrain. I did my doctoral work at a major Russell Group with 15 PhD students in my year in my dept. Out of those, I believe 3 of us got permanent jobs, and it took us each about 4-5 years of postdoc graft to get those. It is just so crazy that maybe he could do something else. He might go for independents schools, esp 6th form with a PhD.

You could also look at it this way: I very sensibly decided not to ttc until I had my permanent job and was on track for promotion. Done and dusted! Except.... We've been ttc for a year and no luck. Currently on fertility clinic referral and may possibly never have DC, and almost certainly not more than one.

So if you had done it differently, you might have different regrets.

Hi, thanks for all the advice and positive encouragement. Yes, I think the transition period of having created another little human is a big part of it, I feel like I suddenly have an immense responsibility and have started worrying about what if something happened to me! Silly, as I already had 2 children, but do remember having vaguely similar feelings after dc2.

Regarding all the academic advice, I am encouraged to hear of others who have had kids during their post doc period, or PhD's. My OH is always going on about people who have 'done things right' ie gone to the states, got experience with some world leader in the field then come back, got a lectureship, had a baby and been able to afford a nice house etc (another issue is that he refuses to get a mortgage due to the short term contracts although I have a secure, well paid job, so we have a mediocre house we have bought outright, which is vastly different to the kind of houses most of my friends/ colleagues live in). He is now feeling he will have to leave academia and go and retrain in something else and probably work away, but then he complains he will not be able to earn much doing this and it is all pointless.

Also interesting to hear of people who have stayed in the same place and made it to lectureships as he really does feel this is a huge drawback to him, although he has been at 4 Russell Group universities including Oxford and Cambridge (not currently). I sympathise with the poster whose husband did not even get an interview for lectureship, it really is competing with everyone in the world, and if my dh is to be believed there are loads of international post docs at his institution who work all the hours god sends and are racing ahead (and don't have families and children here!) And it is true the university is open in viewing post docs as a disposable commodity to be changed every 2 years. However, I also agree that with academia being what is is I have no way of knowing if things would have been vastly different for him had we not had children. He is now 5 years past his PhD, which he feels is too long. I don't want to say the field exactly and out myself but it is more science/ engineering.

Unfortunately I think we both feel the children thing has messed up his career, and it has been an issue in our relationship ever since the first child. If I could go back I may do things differently, even though I love my children, but I remember the intense broodiness before the first and feeling that, in my early thirties, we really had to get on with it unless, like others, we had problems ttc - Revoltingpeasant, I really wish you luck in your ttc journey.

I left academia so that we could stay in the area my dh loved. He was fed up with moving and there were no permanent contracts available in my field.

Sometime I get a bit sad that I didn't publish more but I have no major regrets. We have dd now and I am glad to be more settled. Lots of my post-doc friends are struggling to find posts now.

Am an ex postdoc here. I'm assuming you are a SAHM? Then I don't see why you can't all uproot and move for his postdocs. Many couples who are both working end up living in different countries or cities and remain childless. Does he say he can't get a different postdoc in a different institute because of the children? That's unfair. As for staying in the same place and career progression. It depends on the place you are in. Where I was there were so many postdocs there were basically no chance of a lecturer ship. Has he considered leaving academia? That might involve another relocation however. But don't get stuck in one place if he is in a rut.

I agree with Revoltingpeasant that "So if you had done it differently, you might have different regrets."

These decisions are always really hard, and in a way there's no good time. But you've got the three children now, so it's just a question of what to do next. Is your DH committed to an academic career? A lot of people get pretty disillusioned with the multiple short-term contracts of the postdoc life and end up leaving academia. If he is determined to stay, then I guess it's a case of sticking it out and seeing what turns up.

The good thing is that in five years time you won't be thinking, "Is now a good time to have a baby?" or trying to conceive. You'll be in a position where (hopefully) you'll be feeling more settled, kids in school and able to stand back and make a decision about where next.

Am an ex postdoc here. I'm assuming you are a SAHM? Then I don't see why you can't all uproot and move for his postdocs.

No, the OP stated in her second post that she has a well-paid, secure job, and that they own a house.

janine I missed that bit. In that case children isn't to blame at all. They are probably unlikely to move even without children isn't it. Whatever the reason is that his academic career has stalled, it's no good blaming the past. It's better to look at the future and see what he could do.

Someone I know from postdoc days just got a job as a lecturership at a much lesser university an hour drive away. Even those are hard to get. She was on multiple short term teaching contracts after dropping out research to pursue the teaching route.

I think you're maybe a bit tired & hormonal. Hope that doesn't sound patronising. I just remember feeling like this (different issue) in the first few months after baby arrived & I would NOT listen to anyone who suggested I might be feeling tired! Your lovely 3dc are here, pls just move forward, it will be ok. No point stressing about decisions that might have been different! :-))))

I had to nc but I am a mature PhD 3rd Yr student with 2 children, one is disabled. I am doing my PhD, then spending a year seeing if I can get a job as a post doc, and then quitting academia.

I really like my research group, I really enjoy the work I am doing but I watch the unreal pressure that relatively sane people I work with are under to work stupid hours away from their families. There isn;t any money around and adverts which do go out are primed for one person to fill. I know of several of my peers who have gone straight into jobs, jobs which were created for them. I haven;t been able to put in the hours and the networking as I have young children and I know that has cost me several opportunities.

I am also considering a third child - because I am slightly mad.

Could your DH put a timescale on the academia path? Maybe if there is no post within two years then he moves to something else? Could you ask someone to help watch the DC for a few hours and sit down and discuss a way forward? Has he a mentor or anyone he can turn to for advice? Our uni has a very knowledgeable science careers advisor who isn't just for the new graduates.

p.s. Congratulations

Academia is not a great area to be in right now. Too many PhDs, long unstable post-doc periods and few permanent jobs at the end, and even if you get one it can feel like a long treadmill of always having to work extra to get to the next stage. It wasn't always like this, a couple of my friends who are professors have admitted they are happy to be retiring right now as they wouldn't want to work like this for decades.

I know this doesn't help you really, but if your husband continues moaning, point out that even people who did it 'right' are struggling, if he checks out any HE publications he'll see plenty of tales similar to his.

Congratulations on your new baby!

Regarding the academia situation: it is rough right now for early career academics whatever their personal circumstances are. I'm a PhD student, and would like to have children relatively early in my career. As far as I see it the academic career is such that there will always be some very good reason for putting off having children, either as a father or mother - decreased flexibility r.e. moving around, less ability to dash off to conferences or stay late for seminars etc. But I don't want to wait 10 or 15 years to have children just so I can see my career in the 'perfect' place first. And it is possible - I know people who have had kids young and gone on to have really quite remarkable academic careers. But academia doesn't make it easy. It isn't the fault of anyone's life choices: it's the fault of the system.

I think your husband is being a little unreasonable in blaming his family circumstances, rather than the academic system. Academia is the kind of career that could so easily suck every last drop out of you. Research can be wonderful and fulfilling but there's no clearly delineated 'end point' to academic work, and the system makes a lot of demands that I think can all to easily encroach upon people's lives outside of the 'ivory towers'. You have to draw your line in the sand somewhere and say "I love this, but there are other things that matter more". For me and my husband (also an aspiring academic - indeed has just got his first proper postdoc, after two very lean years!), the line in the sand was having a ridiculous commute between our two universities, or moving outside of Europe. The moment at which we see our careers pulling us geographically apart is the moment one or both of us is going to have to step back and re-think things, because there are other things that matter more than academia.

With that in mind, is there any chance you could persuade your husband to view the 'limits' that having children puts on him in a more positive way? I.e. having children and a family gives him real, important things to care about and work for outside of academia, giving him balance and life satisfaction that you can't just get from a lab or a library? -- does that make sense?

On the other hand, I'm wondering, would it be really impossible for you to move around within the UK, or is your own job pretty fixed? There aren't enough positions for all trained PhDs in this country, but there are a lot of opportunities if you could consider moving around a bit. Perhaps you could find a job in an area proximate to multiple universities, giving him more options to apply for teaching etc?

*the line in the sand would be...

No, not sahm. I have a good, well paid job having followed a well-trodden and more reliable (though possibly less exciting!) career path - the fact I get paid more than him for working pairt time is another issue, though not an issue for me! We have a house but is not a forever home, so will hopefully be moving at some point. Do feel setled in the area, eldest is at school and family nearby, but I would move if he got a permanent job, assuming i could also find something. Problem is that a lot of 'permanent' lectureships have probationary periods now as someone said.

This situation has put loads of strain on our relationship and I just feel something has to give - either he makes the decision to leave academia or gets amore secure post, Otherwise I can't see any end to living with the ongoing sense of dissatisfaction and impermanence which has been the state of affairs for ages!

Op I know someone who went to teach in an independent 6th form after his PhD - hence mentioning that earlier - works with kids who are nearly at HE level, school adores him for,his experience - and he still does research and publishes popular books in his area in his own time.

Is there a chance of your DH making that kind of move?

Though I am in humanities and it is easier to do research without specialist facilities for us.

No advise on the academic side of things, sorry.

As far as the 3 children issue, think ahead 3 years and think about how life will be and what you will be able to do with your family when the dc are 8, 6 and 3 and beyond.

I can't comment on the academia side but I can honestly say that our #3 was a total heart over head decision and an absolutely indulgence. I can honestly say hand on heart the first 3 years I constantly thought "what the f#ck have we done." However, youngest starts reception in September and we are on an even keel. I cannot imagine life without 3 and the youngest is an absolute light of our life. I found it very hard when I saw all our friends moving on, getting their careers back, coming to school empty handed, going on great holidays and I was still wandering around with the buggy but now I feel that we are one of them. I love having 3. It's a financial drain that's for sure but now that we are through the early years it's fabulous.

Eh your DH needs to suck it up. I had my second as a single parent (partner left early in pregnancy) during my PhD. Yes, it makes life a bit different compared against the PhDs/postdocs who are living a protracted adolescence, but you can still move when they are this age, and ffs he has you there doing presumably a lot of the childcare etc, so has it nowhere near as hard as many. I am probably employed at a lower level than I would be had I published more and been prepared to move all over the world (which your DH could still do with you all! I can't because ex would get court order against it), but that is just life, very few people get to completely fulfil their potential. He could write papers in evenings when kids are asleep presumably? That's when I wrote my thesis...

PhD and postdocs who are living a protracted adolescence

What do you mean by that, Ponkypink?

I have 3 children with similar age gaps to you. It very quickly gets easier. As soon as the youngest can walk he will be running after the others and doing the same stuff.

Yes its more difficult to take them swimming right now but does that really matter? There is plenty of time for that when they are a bit older. When the older ones are grown up they will have no memory of whether or not they did fewer activities than their peers at the ages of 3 and 5. But they will have another sibling, which hopefully will be a positive throughout their lives.

You could delayed having children and your dh might still not have had the career he wants. FWIW, dh is an ex-academic and is more fulfilled out of academia - away from the constant pressure to churn out not-very-good publications .

I have 3 children with similar age gaps to you. It very quickly gets easier. As soon as the youngest can walk he will be running after the others and doing the same stuff.

Yes its more difficult to take them swimming right now but does that really matter? There is plenty of time for that when they are a bit older. When the older ones are grown up they will have no memory of whether or not they did fewer activities than their peers at the ages of 3 and 5. But they will have another sibling, which hopefully will be a positive throughout their lives.

You could delayed having children and your dh might still not have had the career he wants. FWIW, dh is an ex-academic and is more fulfilled out of academia - away from the constant pressure to churn out not-very-good publications .

I'm in computer science and you can find out if you google me on mumsnet anyway. Many of my fellow post docs have left and now work as software developers. It is a relatively easy field to get into. Some one I know has just started as a software developer after 10 years of postdoc. I don't think he starts at the lowest rung so it would have been similar or just slightly lower in pay. You said your husband is in science/engineering. Is it something transferable to a commercial area? Teaching is ofc an option and I think STEM teachers are in demand?

I don't know if 5 years is too long as postdoc as it really depends in the field. But there are so many postdocs in my area that are pushing 10 years. And postdoc experience is not valued if you go for a teaching position in non research universities . Hence my mentioning earlier that it is something you have to work on after you give up the postdoc. I guess like teaching in 6th form college.

RevoltingPeasant I haven't thought about continuing publishing because when I left I have made my decision to say goodbye to academia.