...to want to say 'honour and obey' in my vows?

[SteelyMindedLiberal]

Background: we're both feminists. He's a strong personality, very intelligent, very loving, considerate, supports my career, does (more than) half the housework, cooking etc. We're not Christian or conservative.

But...

I am completely submissive to him and he sets the tone in every aspect of our relationship. Obviously there is a strong (and very hot!) BDSM undercurrent to all this. But it goes way beyond the bedroom: he leads, I follow, it's obvious and noticeable, and we both love it.

He's 'in charge'; never controlling. I am always listened to, and feel completely equal. I just do as he says and trust him to do the right thing. We're not ashamed of how we are, it's fundamental to us and because of that we want it to be included in our vows. He says it's up to me but he would like it very much, and I really, really want to say it.

BUT: it would mean outing our 'activities' to all our family and friends. I don't want our wedding to become all about that one line. Maybe no one would really care or give it any thought? We're happy to simply say: 'that's our dynamic and it works for us', to most people, but he has a 20-year-old daughter and it's her we're most worried about. She's sassy and worldly and she'd get it at once and probably be fine with it in private, but might find it really embarrassing and awkward... argh!

Help! It's the whole please ourselves or please others thing, I suppose...

Not seeing that it's a feminist/not feminist issue. I've had a few D/s relationship in my time and in all but two the submissive was male. Some people naturally dance follow. The anti feminist thing is insisting women must or must not have a particular role. As for insisting that a consensual power gradient inside a relationship makes any difference to the political or economic equality of the partners: no. That kind of thinking is what patriarchy is based on. Because my Dp is submissive between us she has to be subordinate e to all men? Take that and shove it. As she'd be first to tell you.

Your relationship sounds a lot more mundane and everyday than you made it out to be in your OP. I thought that it was all sub/dom and him taking control and instead it appears to be that you have a conversation about what car to have and then he makes a final decision

How tame! After all this drama over the vows as well - I don't think there seems to be anything for people to notice about your relationship. It sounds like a billion others in this country to me!

Ha! Yes the everyday stuff is mundane. There are quite a few aspects to it, but it really isn't about him telling me who do vote for and stuff like that. That's what I was trying to get across.

God, this is hard. I feel an overwhelming urge to explain myself and answer everybody's questions and maybe I should step back. I suppose this is what I was afraid might happen on out wedding day - or a version of this, at least!

*our

PS we didn't have a convo about the car. He told me straight on that one. I do have a small say in what we do at the weekends though ;-)

I suppose this is what I was afraid might happen on out wedding day - or a version of this, at least!

Not really, because on your wedding day, you aren't going to qualify your desire to honour and obey by introducing the nature of your sexual relationship.

I didn't think you could make those vows in a civil ceremony, and if you did, I'd notice because they're so traditional/churchy. I wouldn't be judging you as 'pathetic' though, I'd just assume you liked the feeling of tradition (Even though I don't like the traditional vows much myself, I think there can be real appeal in following a formula repeated down the ages which your great grandparents said, and their parents, and theirs, and maybe a feeling of connection?)

On the subject of feminism and BDSM in the bedroom...we find pleasure and fulfillment in various different ways of having sex. Some people like oral sex, some people hate it and can't imagine finding it pleasurable. Some people find the experience of mild (or more than mild!) pain arousing and very pleasurable in a sexual context. Some people find "submitting" and letting their partner choose how they're going to have sex, to be much much more pleasurable than anything else

If I happen to like a certain way of having sex and don't like the experience of 'being in full control' in bed, than screw it, I'm not going to be told to have sex for the rest of my life in a way that I hate, just to conform. Sacrificing your personal sex life on an alter of 'we all must suffer for the society we want', sounds pretty fucked up to me, as well as totally pointless. Telling individuals to sexually and emotionally repress themselves is wrong.

And screw being told "sorry, if you want to be a good person who makes the right choices, then you've got to give up the sex acts you find pleasure in, and just find sex unenjoyable for the rest of your life" by someone who is not in your position.

I don't find it any different than me being told by a conservative Christian "sorry, God thinks you having sex with a woman is wrong, and you can't go to heaven if you disobey God, so you have to have unenjoyable sex with a man for the rest of your life". Screw that as well

steely, sorry if you feel badgered, I'm just trying to understand how it works and how it is any different to any other relationship.

As an individual, I do feel it's your right to live a sub dom lifestyle but when you have kids would you be imposing that lifestyle on them? (do we all end up imposing our lifestyles on our kids? that's where they learn their norms.)

Being a feminist is about being a full human being. Submitting to someone in a relationship where you are either being dominated, or opting out of being taking responsibility as an adult, is not acting like a full human being.

Whatever: you aren't in the minority. Pretty much everyone said that.

Kisses: spot on. I am submissive to no one else, never have been. I've genuinely longed to find someone I could submit in the way I can with him. All that respect and trust. I don't and physically couldn't go about submitting to any old chump.

And a more satiircal view:

Women now empowered by everything a woman does

My cousin's wife promised to obey on their wedding day. Mum and I had a stereo moment.

I'm never going to look at cuz's missus in the same way now, am I ?

how does the submissive thing work in the bedroom if he wants sex and you don't. Do you have to do it any way?

Oh god. I'm an active feminist. How many times? This is my sexuality: a deep, basic part of me that shapes how I form relationships and live a fundamental part of my life. It's not about jest gender I am. I can't help being like this.

*what

If you want to say it, say it. It's only an issue to you, it's a non issue to other people I think.

I don't think it is necessary to project your own feelings on it and assume other people think about it the same way you do....unless you start making into a discussion point, that is.

Back to the talking-about-bedroom-stuff namechange I go! I'd notice if you made those vows, because they are unusual these days. And I might suspect an undercurrent of D/s, (as I did upon reading your thread title), but only because I am in some contact with that lifestyle myself, although I'm not in a 24/7 D/s relationship as you are. As such, having noticed it, I would proceed to not say a bloody word. Because it's rude. If I weren't already familiar with it, I would probably just assume you a bit oldfashioned and/or religious. But as people say, you probably won't be allowed to use those vows in a civil ceremony.

Regarding the BDSM and feminism debate: that has raged for many years, and will continue to do so. Anyone interested, go and look it up. Plenty of good stuff online - from both sides of the debate. For me, I'm going to continue to have a sex life that satisfies me, being the consenting adult that I am, involving other consenting adults, and harming precisely no one. And I will also continue to speak out against inequality, against sexism, for feminist issues, I will continue to be an advocate and an activist. I may not be the world's best feminist because dammit none of us are perfect, but I won't be told that I don't understand feminism at all, just because of what I choose to do in the privacy of my home.

I think people have serious misconceptions about what most D/s relationships are like. It's not one person bossing the other around all the time, and micromanaging them. It's a much more subtle dyanamic

As for kids, well, I don't see the issue. Again, it's not micromanaging and bossing around. They may notice one parent taking on certain tasks (if the parents have a 'sub does all this, this and this work, which is hardly always the case), which is no different to many other. The parents will love and respect each other as much as any of their friends parents do. So what, the kids see two parents who clearly love each other and have a good relationship? They don't see nasty controlling behaviour. D/s relationship does not equal controlling or abusive relationship.

If both parents are gay, are they 'imposing' on their kids?

There are feminist choices; there are neutral choices; and there are anti-feminist choices. What two people do in the privacy of their bedroom is their own business and in most cases largely a neutral choice, I think. But where a woman totally submits to her husband and makes a public avowal of it--that is not a feminist choice, that is a choice that reinforces and sustains societal norms that collectively oppress women.

• to many other households where circumstances mean one parents always does certain tasks

SteelyMindedLiberal - Out of interest, have you been in the relationship for a fairly short time and is your partner quite a bit older than you?

Great posts, Lilka & LEDPenguin.

lilka, interesting post, I kind of think every home situation ends up imposing it's own set up as the baseline for what a child believes is "normal".

I can't help thinking that all this dom/sub stuff is dressing up a fairly usual situation as something a bit daring and special.

I mean a decision has to be made somewhere by someone and some point. So you're husband comes up with most of the answers, i don't know if that makes your relationship so special it needs a name.

My husband also makes most of the decison because he is infinitly more sensible and knowledgeable about some stuff than i am, no not how i wear my hair and what i wear but certainly about cars and where would be most fun to go at the weekend. Doesn't mean we need to label our relationship

Feminism has never been about choice. It has (until very recently it seems) about the liberation of women from male oppression. More choice for women is a by-product of that.

Not all choices are feminist. So wearing make-up isn't a feminist choice (because of patriarchal beauty practices etc etc) but that doesn't mean to say a feminist wouldn't choose to wear make-up. We get by in this world.

The OPs choices of being submissive to her husband whether in the bedroom or elsewhere in their relationship a're not feminist acts. They uphold the patriarchal norms of male domination/female submission. They blatantly fly in the face of what feminism is trying to achieve.

OP you say you ate a feminist but haven't offered any evidence for that. So althoughI wouldn't like to dismiss that as a claim but surely as a feminist you understand structural oppression and how you are playing into that?

And supporting women does not mean agreeing with or supporting every choice a woman makes. Especially if those choices continue to damage women as a class.