...to want to say 'honour and obey' in my vows?

[SteelyMindedLiberal]

Background: we're both feminists. He's a strong personality, very intelligent, very loving, considerate, supports my career, does (more than) half the housework, cooking etc. We're not Christian or conservative.

But...

I am completely submissive to him and he sets the tone in every aspect of our relationship. Obviously there is a strong (and very hot!) BDSM undercurrent to all this. But it goes way beyond the bedroom: he leads, I follow, it's obvious and noticeable, and we both love it.

He's 'in charge'; never controlling. I am always listened to, and feel completely equal. I just do as he says and trust him to do the right thing. We're not ashamed of how we are, it's fundamental to us and because of that we want it to be included in our vows. He says it's up to me but he would like it very much, and I really, really want to say it.

BUT: it would mean outing our 'activities' to all our family and friends. I don't want our wedding to become all about that one line. Maybe no one would really care or give it any thought? We're happy to simply say: 'that's our dynamic and it works for us', to most people, but he has a 20-year-old daughter and it's her we're most worried about. She's sassy and worldly and she'd get it at once and probably be fine with it in private, but might find it really embarrassing and awkward... argh!

Help! It's the whole please ourselves or please others thing, I suppose...

That Onion link is superb! Painfully spot on.

Can anybody explain what is actually different about these BDSM relationships then, if they're based upon mutual love and respect and not somebody telling the other what to do?

That sounds just like my own relationship. What are the differences? OP said the differences with her were noticeable but the manual car seems a bit of a non event. I probably wouldn't have noticed that if a friend of mine bought a new car that her DH recommended.

So.....it's Saturday morning. You really want to go to the cinema, and he really wants to go for a bike ride.

What happens?

Because it's either something like:

a) You explain why you really want to see the film - that it finishes today, that you can go for a bike ride on Sunday and anyway the weather will be better then and he decides you'll go to the cinema.

In which case - he's not dictating, because your views are being acted on.

Or is it more like:

b) You explain why you really want to see the film - that it finishes today, that you can go for a bike ride on Sunday and anyway the weather will be better then and he decides you'll go to for a bike ride because that's what he wants to do.

In which case - yep, you're a doormat!

I don't think you should say these words out of respect for women in general.

It may work, for whatever reasons, in your own relationship, but that's no reason to promote the idea more generally.

Just keep some stuff private?

And supporting women doesn't mean we can't analyze or question the choices they make.

I would suggest researching the original meaning. I remember when my friend got married she'd said those words, she been told the history of it & that seemed to give her more reason to want to say it...

OP, sexuality, at least in part is constructed by the society we live in. It isn't just some magical coincidence that you have chosen to be the submissive partner and him the dominant.

Yes he's older than me. All my partners have been, because of how I am. We've been together 3 years and it's the best relationship I've had by miles.

I am deeply offended and hurt that people who have never met me are declaring that I'm not a feminist. I didn't choose to be like this. I've made my peace with it and accepted it, but that took years. My carefully formed and informed opinions about feminism and equality come from an entirely different place. This is my sexuality, it doesn't spring from a worldview. I get that it's alien to some people, but I am a feminist, I bloody am, an active, vocal one, and my sexuality, which I cannot control, does not prevent me from believing women and men are equal and should be treated so worldwide, in the workplace, and in the home, unless they expressly choose otherwise.

I have made an individual, very personal, very important choice in the full knowledge that my partner loves me, respects me, sees me as an equal and would never abuse his position. If I suspected for a second he had some dark patriarchal motive, I couldn't do this, because of my politics and world view. But he is a feminist too. We do this because it feels incredibly right to us, and natural and intimate and loving and close. IT IS NOT ABOUT GENDER.

This is exhausting. I hate that something I see as genuinely beautiful has to stay hugely private or be torn apart like this.

Exactly scallops. Just as it isn't a magical coincidence that loads of people want to have the same surname as their children, but only women want to change their own surname to achieve this.

Scallop: I get that. I accept that. So society created this in me. But so what? I'm still a feminist. So is he.

You might also be interested to know that on thd 'scene' submissive men outnumber sub women (and Dom w

...women by MILES

Sorry, hit send too soon

My baseline for a relationship was to see two heterosexual partners, who were physically affectionate (as in hugs and small kisses in front of the kids!), never hit each other, occasionally wound up in furious verbal arguments complete with swearing and (empty) threats, but always made up. I saw women (not just my mum) doing ALL the cooking and cleaning and caring for the kids, whilst the men worked long hours in manual labour/the traditional Northern industries, and expected dinner on the table when they got home.

How much did that impact on me? Well, I don't think any worse or better than if I had had two parents who were in a D/s relationship. Maybe in a D/s relationship the scary verbal slanging matches wouldn't have happened so much or at all, but I can't think of any other serious differences that I would have noticed as a child. I never wanted to emulate certain aspects of their relationships or believed that 'this way is better' (the heterosexual part, for instance, is not for me!)

Children will see their parents relationship as 'normal', yes, but there's nothing about the vast majority of D/s relationships that would be at all harmful to a child.

This is my sexuality what, getting a manual car?

Depends what you're doing with the gear stick, I suppose.

Steely, surely you can't be surprised by the reaction here?

Most people feel deeply suspicious of relationships where one adult is the boss. Have you found otherwise anywhere else, in real life?

I see nobody has addressed the issue of children in these relationships- OP, how would you model a man/woman relationship for your children?

Oh, and I'm not sure how you choosing a manual car makes it easier to share cars- unless your partner is too manly to drive an automatic? Or was it a typo and it was you having an automatic that made it easier to share cars - in which case I apologize.

I agree scallops. Just because you say something/someone is feminist doesn't make it so. Sexuality and worldview are deeply entwined.

I think you're making a bit of a weird fuss about nothing.
Like many people, if I heard a bride say 'honour and obey', I'd think, blimey, thought she was better than that! I would not assume some big deal, unless she said it it a meaningful way with pauses and a husky voice on obey.
Nobody at all has to talk about this, but starting an AIBU about it was probably not the best way to prevent them from doing so.

So why are you hanging around an internet forum trying to convince people OP?

It's your relationship, just include the words or don't.

It's hardly an unusual thing for a woman to be submissive to a man in a marriage. I know tons of women like this because it's part of their culture and religion.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with this thread...do you want everyone's 'acceptance' or something?

Why would that be important to you? We're just internet strangers.

My sexuality is important to me but it does not define me or my relationship. I think this is where I am failing to understand the "roles". I cannot apply the logic to the parameters set in my own relationship. This is my own ignorance of course. It does make for interesting analysis. Watching with interest.

OP has also been told numerous times that she won't be allowed to use those words in a civil ceremony but the debate has moved on I guess.

A poem in the invitations is the way forward.

We hope youll come to share with us
This very special day
And please don't shout or make a fuss
When I promise to obey.

SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME SORT THIS OUT i agreed to love honour and obey my husband during our vows not realising it would expose our alternative BDSM antics of which there are none do you think I should write to all the wedding guests and explain that I am not my husbands sexual slave and will not do whatever he instructs of me just because he demands it of me obviously thats what all our guests must have been thinking for the last 4 years or do you think i should just risk that no sane wedding guest ever would assume this from use of a traditional vow????

But can't you see that accepting the idea that they should obey their husbands has damaged many women's lives Steely

And I don't get why you have to half share your private life in your vows when you've said it will be a problem if people want to know more and ask you about it afterwards?

Is it a coincidence that more men than women prefer to be sexually submissive, in my experience?

Maybe, maybe not, but in many ways it flies in the face of the general pattern in society. Either way, if they're happy and fulfilled then that's great

I think you're making a bit of a weird fuss about nothing.

^^THis