To think that the timing of Gerry Adam's arrest does stink a bit?

[ClubName]

I despise the man and hope they have enough on him to let him rot, throw away the key etc

But, whatever they have it's not new (not new this week anyway) and I can see why he and his supporters think the timing of his arrest is political.

More importantly, unless he does end up in prison for a long time (which sadly I doubt) this whole business is just going to enhance his popularity and build the case that the PSNI aren't impartial

I entirely agree that all the deaths caused by violence in the Troubles are appalling. I am a Catholic (not Irish, at least not for generations), married to a former British Army officer, and I have an awful lot of sympathy for the Catholics who were discriminated against in so many areas of life in the period leading up to the Troubles.

And yes, the Protestant paramilitaries did repulsive things.

But we shouldn't forget what the IRA did. And not just in the sphere of political violence. I worked for an animal health PR company in the nineties. There was a huge problem with counterfeit drugs and the entry point to Europe was known to be NI, and the people bringing them in were the IRA. They were involved in so much crime of all kinds.

I think the thing is Abra1d that everyone does remember what the IRA did but very few people outside of NI seem to be aware of anything that was done by any other groups. Loyalist Paramilitaries were soley responsible for flooding my home town with heroin in the 90's, an entire peer group of children had their lives ruined by it (and when I say children I mean very young teenagers) but they still seemed to be viewed (outside of NI at any rate) as either inconsequential or reactionaries. We should either try and forget the past or we should remember everything that was done.

People can be very naive about things Brutha. I remember my not very worldly sister (in her 40s at the time, so not a child) saying to me. 'Well, I'll say one thing for the UK and other groups. At least they're very anti drugs, they're always shooting drug dealers'.

She was amazed when I told her it wasn't some altruistic community minded thing, it was to keep control of the market themselves.

phone autocorrected to UK!

Should say 'UVF'

3500 people were killed during the troubles, and tens of thousands injured. Of those killed, Republicans (IRA and its different factions) were responsible for 60% of deaths. Loyalists 30%. And the British Army 10%.

Every single death, no matter who was responsible, should be fully investigated and people brought to justice where possible. Even if there's an election on. Even if the person of interest is the leader of a political party.

Sinn Fein are quick to call for inquiries into Bloody Sunday and deaths caused by Loyalists, and quite rightly. It has to work the other way.

Panda would you distinguish between civilian and non-civilian deaths? Do you believe that the deaths of active IRA members shot by the British Army should be investigated?

Sinn Fein are quick to call for inquiries into Bloody Sunday and deaths caused by Loyalists, and quite rightly. It has to work the other way

And how many high profile politicians have been arrested for questioning?

In my memory I only know of Gerry Adams- this could of course be wrong. But that doesn't mean that the rest are all lovely upstanding citizens.

Exactly.

Ian Paisley has never been behind the door about his support of loyalist terrorist factions.

I don't think it's a huge jump to say he was involved with them.

If he was of course he should be investigated. I suppose with Gerry though there is at least some firm allegations (Boston tapes), which may not be the case with Paisley.

Treaclesoda, my DS attends a catholic school where there are 50% Protestants. There is also a catholic primary school nearby that is close to a Protestant housing estate and there are mainly Protestants on that school, simply because it has a reputation for being a good school and the state school within the housing estate doesn't.
So it does happen in places.

That's actually really nice to hear teawaster, I'm glad to hear it happens.

I know of a state grammar school that is so mixed that it could quite easily re brand itself as an integrated school, but they prefer not to because the 'integrated' tag could put people off. Which is quite ironic really.

David Ervine was active in the UVF. He was never investigated. He passed away in 2007.

Apart from him, what other politicians had involvement? He named no one else in the Boston tapes.

Ian Paisley might have shown support but I doubt very much that he had any kind of power. There are ways that people become leaders of paramilitary groups that I just cannot see Paisley involved in. You don't get to be a commander by being nice to people.

Peter Robinson or Jeffrey Donaldson being involved with the paramilitaries is just laughable.

As for the question over civillian versus non civillian.

Margaret Thatcher moved all the prisoners from Long Kesh into the H blocks at the Maize prison, and stripped them of their political prisoner rights. She made speeches saying that criminals should be treated as criminals.

So if they were not political prisoners and they were just criminals, then there was no "war" and so, any death caused by armed forces outside of a war situation should, IMO, be investigated.

Margaret Thatcher and the British Government cannot have it both ways, any more than Gerry Adams can.

Panda, you might want to Google 'Peter Robinson' and 'Ulster Resistance' before you start laughing.

You might also want to read up on the first murders committed during the Troubles, by the UVF in 1966. The killers stated publicly that they blamed Paisley. He was v good at stirring people up, fomenting violence, and then disappearing. Read up on the UWC strike and Ulster Vanguard while you're at it.

Your post really just underlines the huge skewing in the way the conflict has been understood.

Ahem.

The killers stated publicly that they blamed Paisley. He was v good at stirring people up, fomenting violence, and then disappearing.

Ofcourse he was. But did he give direct orders? Could he have had the influence Gerry Adams had? No.

If they need investigated then I am all for investigating them. Arrest them now.

In fairness to you Panda at least you're consistent. Would be interesting to see the entirety of the senior politicians, civil servants, policy makers of the British Government, the senior echelons of the British Army, all of Sinn Fein and the DUP, and politicians from the ROI from about 1965 -1995 being investigated.

Could he have had the influence Gerry Adams had? No

Why no?

I would say that Ian Paisley "Third Force" was a direct link to paramilitary activity, certainly a precursor to splinter groups that emerged from those initial speeches/ defence forces etc.

David Ervine attributed his membership of the UVF to retaliation.

Ian Paisley wasn't in command of hit squads. He might have been drumming up support and he might have been stirring the pot, but there were voices on both sides doing that.

Gerry Adams was in command of a hit squad that first tortured and interrogated a widow and mother of 10 children, and then went into her home and dragged her from the arms of her kids, then killed her. The people who actually committed the act didn't agree with disappearing her, but they acted on higher orders.

What Ian Paisley did or didn't do is pretty redundant here tbh. If he needs investigated then do it, but let's not dilute the severity of what the McConville family have been put through with a game of he said she said.

Well then let's not imply that those other irritating details, you know the murder and violence committed by the "other side" are less important.

Is it better or worse to incite people to murder while keeping them at arms length or to be in it up to the neck and actually order people to commit murders? Because really there's the distinction. A plague on both their houses I say.

I know I said it was my last post earlier but seeing as someone brought up the Bloody Sunday inquiry which is very personal to me.

The first inquiry when it happened was a cover up, white wash. Even the dogs on the street knew that the people killed that day were innocent, unarmed. The second inquiry was not to bring anyone to justice but to right the wrong of the first one. Those soilders murdered unarmed civil rights protesters. They know it, we all know it and now they inquiry has shown it. The justice is knowing that everytime they look in the mirror they will see the face of a murderer.

Its not about what was done by which side. No sides crimes are less important.

Its about treating an abduction and murder as the crime it is without the whole "but what about the other side."

Both sides were wrong, both sides killed people. That fact doesn't undo the hell the McConville family have been put through. I would say the same if it was the other way round. If you knew me, and knew where I live, you would believe that.

And I completely agree with Friggin's post on Bloody Sunday.