to not see the problem with banning schoolkids from the shopping centre?

[Vintagejazz]

A friend of mine has steam coming out of her ears because her child's school has made a rule that children in uniform cannot go into the shopping centre down the road from the school. She's banging on about it being an infringement of her teenager's rights.
Personally my sympathies are with the school and the shop owners. Up until recently gangs of teenagers used to descend on the centre at lunchtime and from 4pm - pushing, shoving, shouting, tearing around and knocking into people, and daring each other to steal things. A lot of people started avoiding the place at those times, which can't have been good for business.
I imagine the school also got the brunt of the complaints from annoyed shopowners and shoppers.

So AIBU to think she should stop going on about her DD's rights, and show some sympathy for the business owners being driven demented by gangs of badly behaved school kids?

The school hasn't banned them from the shops. They've said the don't want them going in there in their uniforms because the school then has to spend ages dealing with complaints about the badly behaved kids.

Vintage - did you read my post (about six-or-so ago)? Offering a possible compromise between your friend's school and the pupils? Third and fourth paragraphs.

I think your friend's school is simply trying to pass the buck and take no responsibility for its pupils. After school hours, as others have said, it is necessary for some pupils to go into the shops. They may want to stock up on stationery, pick up some milk or bread for the family on the way home. So is your friend's school saying those same pupils can go in, as long as they have no identifiable association with the school?

That doesn't seem like a very good school, to me.

And if they'd behaved themselves, or stopped their classmates from behaving badly, they wouldn't be banned

How does one 14 year old stop another from doing something?

^But that happens all the time in life. For instance, they introduced a rule in my last workplace that anyone out sick on a Monday or a Friday had to have a doctor's cert. This was because a number of employees were abusing sick leave regulations to take nice long weekends. As a result, everyone then had to go to the expense of a visit to the doctor's (not cheap here in Ireland) to get a cert if they happened to be ill on those two days.
It's annoying and unfair, but it's often the only way of dealing with a problem. It also teaches young people that their behaviour impacts on others^

Yes, lots of unfair things happen in life, the frequency of unfairness doesn't make it any less wrong though.

What is it teaching those that always behave well?

I don't get the 'discrimination' argument. It is the school, not the shopping centre, that is banning the children going there while wearing their uniform

There have been other cases [and threads on here] about particular shops etc that have banned school pupils.

Whether it is discrimination, or just punishing the majority for the actions of a minority, it is still wrong.

I could understand it during lunch time and other school hours.But other than that -no.
Basically the school does not own the uniform garments, they belong to the pupil and so they can where it when and where they please

oh silly me!!!! the reason I thought this was about banning schoolkids from the shopping centre? was because you put it in the thread title.

And of course your OP explains that this ensures the kids are effectively banned from the shops at lunchtime and after school.

So let me get this straight. The school insist on a uniform. This means that shops know which school the unruly kids come from. The school is getting a reputation of churning out hooligans so they want it kept quiet where the kids come from.

In order to stop shop keepers knowing who the kids are the school want them to go home and change before they can go to the shops.

They are not banning them from the shops as long as they don't let on which school they go to.

No need to be sarky BackonlyBriefly. I was just trying to explain why it's not the same as a shop putting up a notice banning 'Black people' or 'Single Parents' or somesuch.

To be fair, Vintage, I think BackOnly is only saying what some others might feel (me, anyway)! Your OP title does say "banning schoolkids from shopping centre", and BackOnly has simply reiterated what many other posters have said, in different words.

And in reply to your last post, it is, in my opinion, just exactly the same as a shop putting up a notice banning any section of any community.

I hope your friend's school can come up with an alternative solution to what they have suggested, otherwise I predict stormy times ahead.

How on earth are the school going to impose this? I'd have told them to sod off. Nothing to do with them what I do outside

I don't see why the school has to be involved, just on the basis of what the children are wearing. If a grown man got caught shoplifting or being drunk and disorderly in the shopping centre, and he happened to be wearing a tescos uniform, you would caution/press charges/whatever against HIM, not against tescos. His personal behaviour outside of work would have nothing to do with his employer.

I understand that the school must be getting a lot of complaints, but why are people complaining to them? It is the child (and secondly, their parent's) responsibility, so if they want to complain, they need to identify the child, and speak to them directly. Just as you would to any other individual, regardless of what they do for a job.

Why should schools be responsible for policing their pupils at any time other than when they are at school???

I agree it's the parents who are responsible, but I do feel sorry for the school. If the Principal says they'll have to identify the child so she can speak to the parents, or that there's nothing she can do because it's out of school hours, she'll be castigated for washing her hands of the problem.
If she tries to deal with it, she has the parents giving out about her.

She can't seem to win.

it is discrimination because the reason for it can be changed. If the kids behave better then the ban may be lifted. I'm afraid that with kids, they do all get punished when some misbehave. Perhaps this will make them convince each other not to be thieving vandals.

Edit:

it is not discrimination because the reason for it can be changed. If the black people behave better then the ban may be lifted. I'm afraid that with black people, they do all get punished when some misbehave. Perhaps this will make them convince each other not to be thieving vandals.

I agree it's the parents who are responsible, but I do feel sorry for the school. If the Principal says they'll have to identify the child so she can speak to the parents, or that there's nothing she can do because it's out of school hours, she'll be castigated for washing her hands of the problem.
If she tries to deal with it, she has the parents giving out about her.
She can't seem to win.

The Principal appears to already be trying to wash her hands of the problem, by asking the pupils not to wear their uniform in the shopping centre (this point has already been made several times by different posters)

If the parents give out about her for trying to deal with it - sorry, but that is one of the responsibilities she took on by accepting the post of Principal. Dealing with pupils (and parents) is part of her remit, surely?

Yes, but how far does her remit stretch? Posters on here are saying (and they have a good point) that what the pupils do out of school hours is not the Principal's business and she cannot dictate where they can or can't go.
Yet on the other hand, other posters are saying that the Principal should not be washing her hands of the problem but should be dealing with it.

She can't win.

I think it is shocking they have blanket banned a whole school for a few idiots these kids will go in and cause a problem in uniform or out Ridiculous Ban maybe they should just not let teenagers in at all then the shoppers could shop in peace eh

I wish our local school would ban its pupils from the shopping precinct. I was in there at school closing time yesterday and amongst the incidents I saw from kids just released from the classroom were:

An elderly man being nearly sent flying as two screeching schoolgirls chased each other down the escalator;

A woman being hit in the face by a biro as a group of kids flung each others property around;

People struggling to get in and out of shops as gangs of kids stood in huge groups in the doorways blocking everyone's access;

People looking around for somewhere to sit down because all the seating was taken up with sprawling teenagers;

And I walked out of the newsagents without the magazine I wanted to buy because there were two groups of kids completely blocking the rack and shooting dirty looks at the assistant who kept asking them to move.

No doubt many of their parents would be highly indignant if they were banned though, because 'my child is perfect and not one of the annoying brats'.

Seriously, no matter how well behaved teenagers are individually, put a group of them together and the large majority are more interesting in impressing their peers and being one of the gang, than watching their manners and considering other members of the public. Any parent who doesn't realise that is very naive, in my view (and yes, I have two teenagers myself. I'm quite sure they wouldn't shoplift but I'm well aware that if they're hanging around with a gang they behave differently than when I'm present).

But her way of dealing with it is not right. At the moment, I think I'm right in saying that she is only dealing with it by telling her pupils they are banned from the centre whilst in uniform. That is just because she (Principal) doesn't want them to be identified as having an association with her school because she is fed up with complaints.
This is not fair to the well-behaved pupils (again, that point has been made many times in the thread).

If she is getting complaints, she needs to find out who the troublemakers are and deal with them, so all the innocent pupils can happily go to the shopping centre. If necessary, can she or other members of staff do a patrol of the area? There are always a few troublemakers, my youngsters' school was no different, so at 'kicking-out' time, members of staff would provide a presence in certain areas of the town and outside school, just as an extra warning to the troublemakers and to monitor the situation.

The comment "She can't win" doesn't wash, I'm afraid. This is part of her job. Whatever job you're in, you have problems to deal with, and she doesn't appear to be doing hers very well.

Why do these shopping centres not have security guards, if there is so much (alleged) trouble?

I would imagine the point is that if they have to go home and change before going to the shopping centre there are less likely to be huge gangs of them hanging around there together. It's normally only when you get a large group of teenagers together that the trouble starts. Even the nicest ones want to be seen to be cool and edgy and will start acting up.

I don't think this is a 'washing her hands' exercise - I think it's a way of getting the pupils to disperse a bit and not head to the shops straight after school in gangs of ten or fifteen, all egging each other on.

People looking around for somewhere to sit down because all the seating was taken up with sprawling teenagers

So teenagers are not allowed to sit on public seating now?

They weren't sitting on it, they were sprawling across it taking up entire benches between a couple of them. They were also ignoring elderly women with bags of shopping who were obviously looking for somewhere to rest their legs for a few minute.

So did you say anything to any of them? If I experience such things, I will speak to them and say "Excuse me - can I get through". Or maybe "Could you possibly shuffle up a bit so this lady can sit down!"

I've often found that quite a satisfactory solution. Speak to them, and you will find they will comply - teenagers often don't realise they're being a nuisance. They should be banned from public places where they are legitimately allowed to be because of it, though.

Naturally, that was meant to say "shouldn't be banned from public places"

But that's the point. Shoppers shouldn't have to be constantly requesting teenagers to move out of their way, take their feet of the seats so someone can sit down etc. People go there to shop, not to discipline groups of other people's teens who treat the shopping precinct like a playground.

I have seen elderly people looking for somewhere to sit, while young people took all of the seats. And I do think that is wrong.