to wonder why the SNP aren't getting the same bashing that UKIP are?

[kinkytoes]

I'm not a political expert by any means and I know there has been a lot of discussion on both topics here.

But both these parties have the same ultimate aim - independence for their countries. Why is no-one calling SNP supporters racist? Not that I think they should be - just curious about the apparent double standard.

Why did I bold Daily Mail?

I am going mad

Thebogqueen I read The Guardian not The Daily Mail.

I vote Labour. I am against Independence.

Yes. I'm afraid I would not take the opinions of a Daily Mail reader seriously on any subject.

The Tories seem less criticised for their policies (bedroom tax being the only one most people can mentioned) than they are for their existence!

That's because the vast majority (all?) of their policies are awful - it would take far too long to list them all

I dunno, I give it a good bash with the Yes campaign

I read them all. Ex-journalist, I can't help it, I'm afraid

I love The Sun - but sadly it's behind a paywall and I don't love it enough to pay for it.

Well that admission killed the thread didn't it

Different strokes for different folks I guess BogQueen.

Tardigrade Whatever the result - there's a substantial chunk of the population that wants more power for Holyrood. That's not going to change. I don't think it will be seen as a failure if there's a No vote as some of it will be due to their own success - there is generally a lot of satisfaction with this government - especially compared to Westminster

I fail to see how something like this isn't seen a "huge generalisation" (the most frequent catch-all insult of independence supporters) yet other statements are.

For the purpose of balance, I live in Scotland (currently) and there is plenty of criticism of the Scottish parliament, the low standard of debate, the lack of a revisionary chamber and the poor quality of interfering nanny-state legislation that it tends to emit.

I've also noticed that a lot of SNP policies seem to be designed to act as bribes, as opposed to necessarily being good for the economy or the country long term.

I live in a rural area and a lot of people think too much of Scottish politics isn't aware of rural issues at all. Theres also more Conservative support.

Melonade No, my comments were not generalizations, they are backed up by facts. A quick Google will show that there is a generally high level of satisfaction in the Scottish Parliament and people would like to see more power - hence all the discussions about other questions about Devo Max being originally mooted in the referendum. The SNP are even faring well in opinion polls, which is unusual at this point in the term.

I was referring to the frequent mention in this thread of 'Nats think...' 'Yes voters say...' 'Left wingers do...' the simple addition of 'some of' may increase the believability of these statements.

I'd like to see the country where rural voters think the government is aware enough of them and funnily enough, the conservatives would be the party to do best out of Independence. They could focus on the policies that their Scottish voters are concerned about and would actually have some representation in Holyrood. Labour could ditch the 'New' bit and become a left wing party again and the Liberals could pretend that the coalition never happened. I'd imagine that the SNP would scatter themselves across the other existing parties or perhaps new parties would be set up?

Melonade you said "I live in a rural area and a lot of people think too much of Scottish politics isn't aware of rural issues at all."

That's really interesting. My perspective as someone who has to deal professionally with what comes out of Holyrood is that there's a lot of focusing and legislation on rural areas-to the point I might have thought urban areas might feel aggrieved.

Whether one agrees or not with the policies and legislation I think Holyrood would be surprised you feel that way. I'm not remotely suggesting you are wrong but I think Holyrood pats itself on the back at the way it treats (or thinks it treats) rural areas.

My perspective as someone who has to deal professionally with what comes out of Holyrood is that there's a lot of focusing and legislation on rural areas-to the point I might have thought urban areas might feel aggrieved

Well, theres certainly a lot of interference, and I guess the argument is that reduces business certainty and affects long term planning, which you have to do if you are a landowner? The community right to buy is hardly universally popular, other than amongst those few communities who benefit from taxpayer largesse. It has to be one of the oddest policies in any country in the EU. Its now being extended to tenant farmers, which has a lot of implications for maintenance of perfectly happily tenanted farms, and is pretty unpopular. If you want to read about it, the Scottish Farmer, which is the main Scottish farming journal, has been full of interviews with farmers saying this for months. The right to roam is pretty much ignored anyway in that nothing much has changed from what it was before. Meanwhile, planning remains as difficult to achieve as ever, unless you are a big developer, hence no-one lives in much of the country, roads and public transport remain unimproved.

But as a slightly separate issue, the Conservatives do have more support in rural areas. Perhaps rural types are less likely to be "persuaded" by short term fixes?

"The community right to buy is not universally popular"........ certainly it isnt amongst the feudal land owners.

50% of scotland is owned by 500 people, this is the most concentrated pattern of land ownership in europe.

Far from community right to buy seeming an odd policy in the EU, this concentation of wealth land and power is an anomaly in europe. It cannot and should not be sustained in a modern democracy.

So far the SNP havent seriously adressed this but i hope that it is addressed if independence occurs (no point in trying to change it otherwise, it will be blocked by the lords, ie, the unelected owners of all this land).

However the fact that you see land reform and community right to buy as a bad thing and consequently support a system of feudal overlords the owning large tracts of a country in the 21st century, explains rather a lot to me about your previous posts.

"The community right to buy is not universally popular"........ certainly it isnt amongst the feudal land owners.

50% of scotland is owned by 500 people, this is the most concentrated pattern of land ownership in europe.

Far from community right to buy seeming an odd policy in the EU, this concentation of wealth land and power is an anomaly in europe. It cannot and should not be sustained in a modern democracy.

So far the SNP havent seriously adressed this but i hope that it is addressed if independence occurs (no point in trying to change it otherwise, it will be blocked by the lords, ie, the unelected owners of all this land).

However the fact that you see land reform and community right to buy as a bad thing and consequently support a system of feudal overlords the owning large tracts of a country in the 21st century, explains rather a lot to me about your previous posts.

Anyone else feeling very uneasy that a bloke called Sykes is able to give huge amounts to bankroll UKIP advertising. And a couple called Weir, lottery winners, are allowed to do the same to bankroll the SNP.

So, individual donors, with Nationalist / Racist agendas are allowed to spend vast amounts of money to influence the electorate.

Yes, I agree that accepting over half a million from Ian Taylor, a businessman who had dealings with the war criminal Arkan, was on the slightly-dodgy side, but it doesn't seem to bother BetterTogether. The Weirs giving money to support a cause in which they have believed all their lives, less dodgy imho.

And not nice to conflate nationalism with racism like that. Has the look of a smear about it.

Individual donors have always given money to support their political interests. Are you happy with all the donors who give to Conservative/Liberal/Labour coffers?
I am uneasy about the bracketing of 'nationalist' and 'racist' too, especially regarding specific individuals!

Xpost

That is a slash, not a bracket.

(And I do feel that many elements of the SNP have a racist agenda in which "Westminster" and "English" have become terms of abuse.).

An oldish but interesting interview from a well educated English man,living in Scotland who "gets it". Who realises that the independence movement has nothing to do with anti English racism and everything to do with a hope for something better for Scotland.

Expressing disgust at a corrupt and bloated political HQ is racist now?

UKIP are racist. I think that is a fairly well established fact - even if you seem to want to dispute that, there is plenty of evidence.

The SNP are Nationalist - something they are inordinately proud about.

UKIP are, arguably, also Nationalist. I have seen considerable evidence that many SNP supporters exhibit a kind of anti-English sentiment that is racist. These extreme elements have gone very quiet, but they exist.

I found this FAQ page very interesting when I started looking into the vote www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4341-a-unionist-lexicon-an-a-z-of-unionist-scare-stories-myths-and-misinformation

I've become much more sympathetic since I stopped using the UK press (which effectively is the London press) as my primary source. The last time I made a comment on the independence debate I said something like 'Don't leave, we'd miss you!' which embarrasses me now that I realize it's not actually about us at all.

The Scottish press isn't much less london focused- I heard that no Scottish political editors are Scottish!

UKIP are indeed racist. SNP, however, are not, nor is the official Yes campaign, nor have I seen "anti-English" comments either on FB or Twitter, and I follow a lot of different pro-yes supporters/groups. I daresay there are some, because any political group will contain the odd tosser (see the aforementioned @BritNatAbuseBot for many, many examples from the "No" pov) but any claim that it's mainstream policy is deluded.

Keep reading, Gatorade, the more you learn the wider your eyes are opened. :)

Lucky for you, OldLady, it is definitely out there, the racism, and you don't have to look very hard. It is a little bit like the use of the word, "Gay" sometimes. It is meant to be a positive word but teenagers use it to mean "worthless or unpleasant". Just replace, "English" or "UK" and you get the idea.

Fortunately, most of the "No" voters are, I suspect, just keeping their heads down, somewhat intimidated by the rabid Nats. What makes me sad is that, although I don't think the Nats will prevail, the whole thing is very, very divisive and nasty. It has made me question whether or not I want to live here - and I have been here a long time, have a Scottish (And Brtitish) DH and Scottish (and British) children. We are very much part of a small, remote community. But, we will leave, as will many of our friends and family, in the event the People's Socialist Republic of Salmond comes to pass.

Interesting, although late, watching the Commons Select Commitee of 9th April on Independence. Really good points made and some very interesting sums that don't add up and problems that will face Scotland.