to wonder why the SNP aren't getting the same bashing that UKIP are?

[kinkytoes]

I'm not a political expert by any means and I know there has been a lot of discussion on both topics here.

But both these parties have the same ultimate aim - independence for their countries. Why is no-one calling SNP supporters racist? Not that I think they should be - just curious about the apparent double standard.

Yes, babyboomer. They gave that reason to their lawyer for withdrawing, who passed it onto mine. Who made no further suggestion.
I didn't 'do' anything. I was 22. I went and bought another flat and thought what idiots they were.
However, it has certainly not been my last experience of anti English sentiments and it has been properly stirred up by the Independence debate.

firstchoice what parts of the curriculum for excellence are racist?

There are parts of it I'm not too keen on but haven't noticed anything racist in it. Maybe your DC are at a different stage in thier education to mine.

Whilst I am no particular fan of the SNP as a Scot I do take umbridge at the comparison you make between UKIP and the SNP. The SNP are a central left party who are pro immigration and I think most importantly pro integration. Post independence the SNP are desperate to stay in the EU, (more so than David Cameron, perhaps). The platform for independence rests on a desire for complete autonomy on all decisions, social, fiscal etc for the Scottish people to be made at Holyrood (the Scottish Parliament).
If you have a moment please google the social inclusion policies of the Scottish Government. I would hazard that there are no such policies in the UKIP manifesto.
Your post saddens me really as it highlights the ignorance of one part of the UK by another.

Pumpkinette.
Bits I am not keen on - First World War currently being taught at High School entirely from the perspective of the effect on crofting? Great part of the history but this being the ONLY aspect? bit odd. (not my direct experience but friend with children in our local High School).

Bits I feel are racist (may be due to the teaching locally) - children coming home from school gleefully telling how teacher had asked kids with English parents to 'raise their hands and describe how they would have tried to kill them' in the Battle of Flodden?

This may be a one off but remember the CforE gives huge discretion to the school / teacher for what is taught and how. It is very 'woolly' indeed.

This may be a one off but remember the CforE gives huge discretion to the school / teacher for what is taught and how.

And this is a bad thing?

I think that some Scots - not all, by any manner of means, but a significant number - are anti-English and logic would tell you that people who share those sentiments and are politically aware would gravitate to the SNP as their party of choice. I don't think it's racist or bigoted to point that out, however of course you're not going to get any stats to prove or disprove it.

I only have my personal experience to go on. I know a number of card-carrying Nats who hate the English. Of course that doesn't mean that the SNP - a highly astute and successful political party, let's not forget - are daft enough to be a racist party or to create racist policies (or should that be xenophobic? I have to say that this particular brand of 'racism' is usually only extended to England, so perhaps xenophobia is the right term.)

ItsAllGoing - it has been at our school, yes.
Witness HT telling us that she cannot assess whether ds is 'behind' or not (dyslexia concerns) as the CforE does not give specific enough guidelines - there is nothing to measure against'.

Also, remember that the Conservatives have promised a referendum on European membership if they win the next election.

So at this rate we're probably more likely to be out of Europe by staying with the UK than by going it alone.

Alone with only the Tories and Nige for company. Ace.

I'm English in Scotland.

Haven't experienced much personal anti-english sentiment

It's helped by the fact that I don't give a fuck what the Scots think of the English. It's irrelevant nonsense.

The tories just don't like immigration from outside of the UK and are blaming non EU residents for the lack of services.

Clamping down on benefits tourism and health tourism - so that we only welcome those who want to work hard and contribute to our society

Cutting non-EU net immigration to its lowest level since 1998 - to ease pressure on the schools and hospitals that all hardworking people rely on

Introducing a new citizen test with British values at its heart

Those Tory policies are not any different to UKIPs.

As for the YES vote in Scotland there is an anti-English undertone to it all so the nationalism displayed is the same as any other nationalistic country with the same aims.

There is nothing wrong with having nationalistic views on your own country's future.

Well the WW1 they will still have to cover the history / reasons the war started etc. Maybe the crofting thing is trying to get the kids to understand the effect it had on the local area (assuming they are in an area where there is a lot of crofts - or in an area that would have been a crofting cumminity at the point the war started). I don't see how it is racist. After all when schools teach WW2 it is all from a British perspective and the effect on Britain - whilst still covering the facts. I suspect German/ French / Polish schools have a very different local perspective to us when teaching WW2 but will still cover the facts.

Scotland is a separate country from England and I don't see that mentioning crofting is racist - would a school in Wales be racist for looking at WW1 and the effects it had on mining? Or if a school looked at the effects that WW2 had on a city that was mainly based on industry (eg: Glasgow or Manchester and the shipbuilding links during the war)? Is America racist for teaching about the American Revolution (as I imagine that would be a bit anti British)

The parents of English children / how would you have killed them I agree isn't right. Teaching them about the facts of the battle and the type of weapons used is one thing but I don't think it should single out children of English parents and then try to 'kill' them.

*are a lot of crofts

Excuse the grammar

Pumpkin - you make some good points.
Re the crofting - maybe racism isn't the right word here.
but it is not helpful for understanding the First World War as an important part of general education ONLY to look at the crofting aspect in Scotland or the mining aspect in Wales or the effect on, say, stately houses in England.
It was a World War and the broader aspects of it should be studied too.

As for the English children being asked to raise hands and discuss the killing of the English - just substitute English for Black / Jewish / Disabled and it is clear to see why it is wrong.

CforE is known to be unpopular amongst HT for a number of reasons, but the fact these sorts of thing can go on is surely one of them. Scotland has a educational heritage to be proud of: 'a man o' pairts' and it is sad to see it being dumbed down like this.

(didn't mean to derail this into specific discussion re CforE, sorry OP!)

My DM is an Englishwoman living in Scotland. My whole life I've heard her chiming "Scots are dour buggers" and "barren land, barren people".

Where I grew up (rural) there are loads of English living so I don't think they can feel too unwelcome.

UKip are not nationilist they are small minded right wingers there is a difference

Yeah - the difference is that the SNP are small minded left wingers.

As Ruth says, don't fall for the poor chat up line from Mr S.

I was just saying dont shout at me there is a big difference between snp and ukip you have to agree with that they are not the same

Clearly the "hands up how you'd kill your parents" stuff is not written anywhere in the Scottish curriculum. An individual teacher being an arse is nothing exclusive to Scotland.

I'm 43 and I've voted SNP in almost every election (when I didn't, I voted Green). I vote that way because of the left-leaning policies of social inclusion that I like.

My dc are being educated under CfE and I'm not seeing any racism at all. Sure, it's Scottish-centred but that's always been the case (I've taught Geog in Scotland for 15 years!). My dc are also educated in Gaelic - school motto is "Da Canan, Da Chulthur, Iomahd Cothrom" (Two languages, two cultures, many opportunities). I couldn't buy the quality they are getting, there's only comparable schools in Wales.

I'm voting yes in the referendum. I'm prepared to take any financial hit in order to have independence. I'm convinced it's best. I'm no fan of Alex Salmond (though I respect his integrity over independence) but I certainly like him better than Cameron.

Well, the SNP are fielding an Asian woman in the Euro elections for a start.

2 SNP cabinet members were born in England- doesn't sound like a very anti-English party does it?

Unfortunately there are racists in every party.

The Tories and Labour are closer to UKIP than the SNP.

It actually seriously hacks me off that my CT pays for dual-language Gaelic teaching in the centre of Edinburgh Weegie, where there is no cultural tradition of the language. And my child with SN can't get the support he needs due to 'budget cuts'. But that's a derail, I suspect

Fairly aptly I just opened this email (received yesterday) from the Yes campaign in my email inbox, r.e. St George's day:

"Dear HoVis2001,

Happy St George's Day!

There were 460,000 people born in England living in Scotland on census day in 2011 – roughly 420,000 will have a vote in Scotland’s referendum, and all will be welcome and important contributors to the Scotland we build after a Yes vote. Already we have support for Yes from almost one third of that number, who also provide some of our most enthusiastic activists – a great platform on which to build.

Our message to citizens from other parts of the UK is the same as to every other voter – the best people to make decisions about Scotland’s future are those who live here, regardless of where they are from. Scotland can be successful as an independent country; it should be independent so we can deliver key gains; and must be to ensure we always get the governments that we vote for.

Understandably, some will be more likely to seek reassurances on particular issues such as citizenship and borders, and are more likely to need information about some practical cross-border issues. And other key messages, such as the importance of the social union, ongoing co-operation, and the benefits of independence for people throughout these islands, will be especially relevant.

So important messages for people living in Scotland who were born in England (or Wales or Northern Ireland) include:

· after independence ALL British citizens living in Scotland will be considered Scottish citizens and dual Scottish/British nationality will be possible, as will citizenship by descent;
· as members of a common travel area, there will be no border controls between Scotland and England and no need to use your passport;
· as citizens of the EU, Scottish and UK citizens will remain free to travel and work throughout these islands;
· after a Yes vote, the “social union” between Scotland and rUK will remain as close as ever – our ties of friendship and family do not and never have depended on sharing the Westminster Parliament;
· after a Yes vote, Scotland and rUK will continue to be strong political allies, co-operating closely on issues where this is to our mutual advantage."

I don't want to de-rail the thread with the specific issues raised there (which I know are all topics of strong debate), but I thought it was interesting in illustrating that the official line in terms of the independence debate is one of inclusivity. Of course, there are going to be people who take things to extremes in all walks of life, but the key point is that xenephobia and exclusivity are written into the UKIP approach - but not that of the SNP and the Yes campaign.

There is a strong Yes movement where I live in Scotland. Lots of meetings and debates. Some of the most vociferous Yes voices belong to English people who live here.

Much of the Scottish nationalist campaign is overtly racist, against the English. Much of the UKIP nationalist campaign is also racist. But the way the two campaigns are treated is indeed different.

The double standard is fuelled by the fantasy that the UK is still in some kind of position of power within the world, as if we still had an empire. This fantasy holds that because of the UK's (imagined) position of (fictional) cultural hegemony we should feel some kind of post-colonial guilt and be rude about our own culture while exaggeratedly 'respecting' every other; and further that we should hold ourselves to a higher moral standard than other nations. Because moral leadership, or to make amends, or some such bollocks.

This is because modern English culture is riddled with bizarre self-loathing dressed up as 'tolerance'. In fact England isn't even allowed to talk about having its own 'culture' without being accused of racism. And, as any fule kno, 'you are a racist' is shorthand for 'you are now officially a non-person and anything you say is no longer admissible in any discussion'.

Reality: the UK is a piss-poor little country that's sliding down the ranks in geopolitical clout, wealth, education, quality of life and every other measure you care to name. The 'progressive' liberal English attitude of cultural self-loathing is a stupid posture that assumes it's pushing against a tidal wave of ugly jingoism founded in some kind of material power or prestige. It's not; the power and prestige is long gone; all we have left is the self-loathing, which is rooted in the same nostalgic imperial fantasy it claims to challenge.

Much of the Scottish nationalist campaign is overtly racist, against the English

Can you point to the 'much'?