to wonder why the SNP aren't getting the same bashing that UKIP are?

[kinkytoes]

I'm not a political expert by any means and I know there has been a lot of discussion on both topics here.

But both these parties have the same ultimate aim - independence for their countries. Why is no-one calling SNP supporters racist? Not that I think they should be - just curious about the apparent double standard.

Who exactly is it being 'devisive and nasty'?

The people describing others as 'rabid' and threatening to leave if they don't get what they want or the people in favour of democracy and inclusion?

Well, if you don't have to look too hard, how about a pointer in an appropriate direction? I did actually come across a wee bit on Twitter this evening, but it was from someone calling herself a "Queen Bitch" or somesuch, and when I checked her feed it was obvious she was just a natural born troll.

I'm still not seeing any rabid Nats, and am fairly confident that however the vote goes in September we're not looking at bloody revolution.

And yet again, the referendum is not about Alex, or the SNP, or even whether one wants Tories out of WM. It's about what kind of future do we want for our dc and our dgc; more poverty, more austerity, more bedroom tax, a dismantled NHS, student tuition fees, prescription charges...

Or the chance to start again? Standing on our own two feet, not "sponging" off our neighbours, making our own policies in the best interests of the people who live here, and accepting the responsibilty when we fuck up. Because fuck up we will, we'll have our own incompetent policy-makers, our own expenses-grabbers, and our own homegrown thieves and cheats.

Just like every other independent nation.

And none of that a reason to vote no.

True believers always take their own reasonableness for granted.

I have had many experiences of anti-English sentiment in my 20 years of living in Scotland and, imo, it is getting worse in the run up to the vote on Independence.

This ranges from:

someone declining to complete on a property sale 'because I was English' (20 years ago now),
to endless jeers and snide remarks about 'going back where you came from' and 'if you don't like it round here you English b then just F O**'
to my (born and raised in Scotland so consider themselves Scottish, but are considered English at school as they don't speak with a 'Scottish' enough accent) children being sent home from school having been asked by their teacher to imagine 'how they would kill their English parents' (they were studying the Battle of Flodden).
I know of 2 English nurses from our local hospital who have left due to the anti-English jibes they were encountering daily. They had stuck it out for over 5 years but it just got worse and worse and senior management told them they were 'oversensitive'. I know of a local business which is vocal in its support for the NO campaign which has found business has simply dried up (suppliers have declined to supply, local partners will not deal with any more etc).

UKIP are racist.
SNP are Nationalist, not racist. Unless you happen to be English.
I support many of the aims of Scottish Independence, - this is a separate country, worlds away from the current Westminster set, but I will vote No partly because I feel that Holyrood is not using its powers as I had hoped and partly because I don't want to feel any more intimidated than I do.

Another who will leave the country rather than live where her children will be bullied for their parentage.

Where on earth do you live, firstchoice? That teacher should be disciplined.

I assure you the majority of people in Scotland do not feel that way about the English.

I'd rather not say on the board but I could pm you if you like.
It is a rural area in the south of Scotland.
the HT and the SEO were made aware by us as it's just the latest example in a string of similar stuff.
they chuckled.
We were and they straightened their faces and said: 'well, can you prove it?, it is your child's words against hers after all and the Unions will get involved and it will get very nasty for all concerned'.

Sadly, many people where I live now and a surprising number in Edinburgh felt exactly they way I describe about the English.

So did our old neighbour, who literally strode across offering to help as we moved in, then heard my southern English (not posh, but home counties) accent and said: 'oh, you're English, sorry, I've left something on the stove' and zoomed off again. He is now an MSP.

Pretty shocked by that firstchoice - DH works in an, um, public-facing role and encounters remarkably unpleasant, aggressive people on a daily basis and although there's the occasional "English cunt" thrown at him there's nothing as systematic as you describe. Even he would say that and he's undecided on the referendum and on Scottish nationalism.

I'm pretty shocked as well firstchoice and I think you should take it higher. I've certainly never seen or experienced anything like that (I'm English) so its certainly not systemic/embedded in the Scottish culture.

I'm in Glasgow btw and used to work with "challenging" young people who were not shy on telling you what they thought of you. They never ever used English as a negative against me
.

first choice that is just awful. Shocking in fact.

I am genuinely surprised though. I'm English and have lived up here for nearly twenty years myself (Glasgow and Edinburgh) and I've never experienced anything like you describe.

well, I've taken it to the Senior Ed Officer. The Dir of Ed wont see us.
I have previously spoken to Govan Law centre Ed Law Dept (for advice about a diff ed issue) and been told that the area I am in 'generates a great deal of complaints'.
It is a bit off topic and I don't want to derail, but my point is that anti - English sentiments are openly expressed by civil servants whose superiors ignore or cover up such racism when they would not do so if it were directed against other 'races'.

Itsallgoing:
I think it is the older generation who are most entrenched. Young people are usually more open minded (unless they are being taught by teachers like my child is experiencing....)

That's appalling, firstchoice . I'm really sorry you're having to deal with that.

Roseformeplease I know we're not in Pedants' corner, but I was referring to two things being linked or associated together, which is a common use of the word (e.g. on Mumsnet we often bracket together Fruit Shoots and sausage rolls)

Some areas of Scotland are far more insular than others and I would not be surprised (though still angry) to find that racism is still experienced there)

Completely naive question perhaps, but following independence wouldn't all the Scottish MP's now in Westminster be standing for power, and they are majority labour?

(I don't know who is considered more relevant in Scotland - the Westminster or Holyrood MP).

Montysma1 However the fact that you see land reform and community right to buy as a bad thing and consequently support a system of feudal overlords the owning large tracts of a country in the 21st century, explains rather a lot to me about your previous posts.

I really fear for the future of personal freedom in an independent Scotland with people like you around? Do you actually understand anything about land law, in the midst of your compulsion to tell people what they think?

Feudalism was swept away in Scotland in 2003 and rightly so, because it sat analogously on the back of a common law system imposed on a civil law system. In fact, Shetland and Orkney still preserve Udal land holding which is Scandinavian in nature.

It is nothing to do with a quite frankly terrifyingly Communist property to compel people to sell their land. This policy does not just apply to large landowners but to smaller landowners, whose land may in future, for example, sit in the way of a big housing estate dressed up as a community project. What on earth is to stop an independent Scotland from using such Communist policies to target individual owners of property, supposedly in the name of the "community"? It won't initially be part of the EU or a signatory to the ECHR after all, so what protections would the Scottish citizen have?

The Edinburgh Statutory Repairs Scheme permits the local authority to compel repairs on privately owned properties, and was designed to be used in emergency situations when the various other options could not be achieved. Instead it has been mired in scandals involving fraud, bribes and massively over-priced unnecessary work. Do you want to know what how the Scottish state responds to a request for Freedom of Information relating to such repairs? Hers an example:

"
Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002 - Refusal Notice

Subject: Statutory Notice

Thank you for your request for information which has been dealt with under the terms of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. Your request for information has been considered and it is not possible to meet your request.

Your request:

Please provide the cost to date and the projected cost of the involvement of MMS in this case and all of the Statutory Notice cases that they have been asked to review.

Our response:

Under the terms of the legislation, a request for information can be refused where one or more exemptions listed in the legislation apply. In this instance, the Council is claiming the following exemption to the information that you have requested. Section 33(1)(b) exempts information if its disclosure would, or would be likely to, prejudice substantially the commercial interests of any person (including, without prejudice to that generality, a Scottish public authority).

MMS are acting under instructions from the Council to play a constructive role with complainants in seeking to identify any losses that may have arisen, using simplicity, informality and directness in helping to find solutions. Further details can be found in the report “Property Conservation – Complaints Resolution” submitted to the Finance and Resources Committee on 20 March 2014 which can be viewed at the following link: www.edinburgh.gov.uk/meetings/meeting/3252/finance_and_resources_committee.

Release of information which would fulfil your request would substantially prejudice the commercial interests of the Council, as it would reveal the financial arrangement that exists between the Council and MMS and would affect the ability of the Council to get best value for money in future if it was disclosed.

Whilst there may be public interest in knowing the costs involved in our contract with MMS, I consider that there is a greater public interest in the Council being able to conclude the best deal for the interests of the citizens of Edinburgh. In addition, the release of the total costs, together with other information which is already in the public domain, could result in a misleading interpretation of the costs involved in individual cases.

Please note that this letter constitutes a formal refusal notice under section 16 of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002"

There are none so blind as those who cannot see.

Anecdote not being the plural of data I haven't mentioned this so far, but here goes.

My DS has SN one of the side effects of which means he doesn't have a Scottish accent. He speaks with a weirdly pure almost RP voice (although thanks to Stampy Longnose, it now has an upward inflection, grrr).

Anyway, we were out walking and this nice man stopped to say hi to DS, who then spoke to him in his non-Scottish voice, to which the man looked at him, looked at me and then said 'Aw poor wee cunt, are you English?' and then practically ran away from him. Which was nice.

Now obviously, I have no way of telling if this man was a Nat but this story chimes with many others from my English friends up here.

Scotland in the main is a friendly, welcoming country but we do tend to believe our own hype. There are racist people here and there are a significant amount of people who 'hate the English'. And as I said before, if you hate the English and are politically minded, logic and common sense would say your party of choice would be the SNP.

It's not SNP policy, it never will be (thankfully) but it is there in some of their supporters.

Can I also point out Montysma1 that an entitlement to the "fruits" of your property is one of the most basic tenets of Scottish land law and has been around for centuries, since the days of great Scottish thinkers like Hume, Erskine, Stair and Bell.

The notion was that private ownership of property was cherished, and respected. What has come now with some of these more Communist/socialist policies is nothing more than badly thought out class hatred writ large. It has very little to do with traditional Scots land law based on civil law principles, entirely distinct from English land law, and is an alien creation entirely on its own.

So what I am asking is do voters anticipate that a post independence government would be more reflective of Scottish MPs in Westminster or Holyrood?

(I suppose it's difficult to say with certainty as the Labour party wouldn't be keen on Westminster MP's saying "No, no, no independence is unlikely to happen, but just incase make sure you vote no, and by the way, if the yes vote wins, VOTE FOR ME!!!!)

So what I am asking is do voters anticipate that a post independence government would be more reflective of Scottish MPs in Westminster or Holyrood?

It beginning to sound more and more as if it will be reflective of a style of thuggery that was thought to have died out with the fall of the Iron Curtain.

You know, I may have my faults, and my writing style might be one of them, but I am a law abiding, well educated and reasonable person. I really resent some of the abusive comments made towards me on here and again, I cannot help but think that an independent Scotland will be more of a place policed by SNP thugs who quell anyone who dares to speak out.

I cannot for the life of me think why anyone would vote for that. I would certainly vote for a free thinking independent Scotland which had a healthy political spectrum and promoted tolerance (actual, as opposed to compliance based) and ethical values, rather than this awful "everything is wonderful, question it and you will be torn to pieces called an eejit like in the school playground horror that seems to be unfolding.

Wilson - my ds speaks in a way that sounds v similar to your ds (down to the Stampy inflection - agree it is V irritating). He has been teased a LOT for having 'English parents'. My dd, oddly, speaks with a fairly strong local accent. She doesn't get teased (so much). The children from Japan, Germany, and Poland at the school are not teased for their parentage or accent (and rightly so).
Calling a young child 'an English cunt' reveals a horrible prejudice.
Yes, it is anecdotal, not databased but it is real experiences of people living in Scotland today so should be respected for what it is.
Sadly, tt is much more widespread than people would wish to believe.

To be fair, I think if you had this vote in any other part of the UK you would encounter similar problems.

1. Bigots and nut cases (who I think are fairly evenly distributed throughout the UK) would feel it gave them a fair platform for their views
2. The politicians from the main political parties whose power base was in Westminster would not be enthusiastic about becoming involved (risky incase of no vote, loss of dream to be prime minister of bigger country).

firstchoice

To be fair, I think if you had this vote in any other part of the UK you would encounter similar problems

True, but that's not much of a commendation is it?!

There are so many well balanced, well rounded individuals in Scotland. The way the current debate and indeed the independence campaign is an insult to them. Maybe more people better placed than I need to philosophise on why the thuggish "agitator" types can use it as a platform for their rather distasteful views and the rest can't be bothered.

Maybe many people don't care that much any more what country they are in, as long as they are well fed, happy and lead good lives?

Calm down Melonade , I am well aware of the land reforms, however little has changed. We still have a large empty unproductive land mass in the hands of a wealthy elite whilst ordinary people cannot afford to purchase a small peice of the remainder as it's ubsurdky expensive. 50% of the land owned by 10% of the people. This is not right. If that makes me commununist, then I suppose I am a communist.

If taking issue with your offensive generalisations about my country and its inhabitants makes me an abusive racist then I must be that too.
Although the most offensive language and national stereotyping I have read on this thread comes from you,.

You seem to be living in a place peopled by folk you patently despise and who by your own account seem to despise you right back.

Every country has arseholes. I have been on the end of anti scottishness in England. I put it down to them being arseholes, not to them being English. You can't seem to make that distinction.

There is no point in engaging with you further however, as you say, there are non so blind .......

And I have a quite a bit more quelling and thuggery to get on with today.

Calm down Melonade , I am well aware of the land reforms, however little has changed. We still have a large empty unproductive land mass in the hands of a wealthy elite whilst ordinary people cannot afford to purchase a small peice of the remainder as it's ubsurdky expensive. 50% of the land owned by 10% of the people. This is not right. If that makes me commununist, then I suppose I am a communist.

If taking issue with your offensive generalisations about my country and its inhabitants makes me an abusive racist then I must be that too.
Although the most offensive language and national stereotyping I have read on this thread comes from you,.

You seem to be living in a place peopled by folk you patently despise and who by your own account seem to despise you right back.

Every country has arseholes. I have been on the end of anti scottishness in England. I put it down to them being arseholes, not to them being English. You can't seem to make that distinction.

There is no point in engaging with you further however, as you say, there are non so blind .......

And I have a quite a bit more quelling and thuggery to get on with today.

Calm down Melonade , I am well aware of the land reforms, however little has changed. We still have a large empty unproductive land mass in the hands of a wealthy elite whilst ordinary people cannot afford to purchase a small peice of the remainder as it's ubsurdky expensive. 50% of the land owned by 10% of the people. This is not right. If that makes me commununist, then I suppose I am a communist.

If taking issue with your offensive generalisations about my country and its inhabitants makes me an abusive racist then I must be that too.
Although the most offensive language and national stereotyping I have read on this thread comes from you,.

You seem to be living in a place peopled by folk you patently despise and who by your own account seem to despise you right back.

Every country has arseholes. I have been on the end of anti scottishness in England. I put it down to them being arseholes, not to them being English. You can't seem to make that distinction.

There is no point in engaging with you further however, as you say, there are non so blind .......

And I have a quite a bit more quelling and thuggery to get on with today.