to wonder why the SNP aren't getting the same bashing that UKIP are?

[kinkytoes]

I'm not a political expert by any means and I know there has been a lot of discussion on both topics here.

But both these parties have the same ultimate aim - independence for their countries. Why is no-one calling SNP supporters racist? Not that I think they should be - just curious about the apparent double standard.

[Aboyandabunny]

Merry, why do you keep posting if you don't know (this is obvious from your lack of knowledge of historical facts, fiscal data and misuse of proper nouns etc) and say you don't care.

[Caitlin17]

It's one of many, many examples I could give you from hhusband's family. Her mother used to go on about "white settlers" in their vilage. And as I said her father when he first met me thought it was ok to be rude to me because of my accent.

She's not my niece she is my husband's niece. I don't consider myself related to her.

[Caitlin17]

Oh and Tobago they are active party members involved in the official yes campaign.

[merrymouse]

I am posting because the op is not about the yes vote (upon which I have neither an informed opinion nor a vote), but about why people find UKIP more racist than the SNP.

I have continued posting because you seem to have taken umbrage at the fact that people outside Scotland aren't that interested in Scottish independence. Maybe that makes them blind fools, but it is true.

Most people outside Scotland would struggle to name an SNP member apart from Alex salmond. On the other hand they could probably name 3 UKIP members on the basis that their battiness makes them newsworthy.

You seem to find this offensive to scotland. I don't know why. Swivel eyed loons are funny and alarming in a way that the future of the royal bank of Scotland just isn't.

Also see: m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27145821. Rightly or wrongly the perception that independence is unlikely, combined with an inability to affect the outcome has led to indifference. On the other hand tens of millions of people living in the uk have UKIP members standing at the next local elections which are less than a month away.

Whether or not I have used the correct terminology the point is still valid that increased devolution of power in Northern Ireland and Wales (which I understand Is supported by the SNP who are friendly with plaid Cymru) makes arguing over whether Scotland would gain independence from England or the uk increasingly academic.

Are there many threads where the Scottish, Welsh and Irish become hot and bothered about each other?

[TheBogQueen]

the point is still valid that increased devolution of power in Northern Ireland and Wales (which I understand Is supported by the SNP who are friendly with plaid Cymru) makes arguing over whether Scotland would gain independence from England or the uk increasingly academic.

What do you mean? We've had devolution since (I think) 1998 in Scotland. Why does that make independence academic?

Because it's 'not going to happen?' I don't think even the most fervent pro unionist is that complacent.

UKIP - this a party which makes me feel like a stranger in my own country. I think their strength is that they can pretty much play to the gallery without the pressures of government, a bit like the BNP. They can promise to help old ladies across the road, make sure your pint isn't warm, and guarantee that men women and children facing torture are imprisoned in this country and then deported to their country.

They can dispense with the European working time directive, equal opportunities legislation and the ability of EU workers to come here to work. They can create a protectionist, parochial little island.

The SNP is fervently pro-Europe and pro-immigration, it does not envisage Scotland as an insular tartan-and-shortbread tourist playground. But this may occurr - the difference is that the people living in this country - which has a separate health, legal, education system, get to chosse whether to be 'little Scotland' or a progressive 'better' country.

[Aboyandabunny]

I think you need to re read my posts. I have not mentioned anywhere a grievance that the people residing in England are not interested in the Independence Referendum. Why would I? I am guilty of ribbing your SE England isolationism.
I am most dismayed though perhaps not surprised that the premise of the original OP was that the SNP and UKIP have been compared to one another.
The UK wide broadsheets do carry regular and in depth articles on the subject. That I am afraid is fact.

[MalcolmTuckersMistress]

I despise the SNP, and I hate Salmond with a passion. I hope this referendum brings them to fail miserably and he fucks off back to planet of the pies with his tail between his legs.

However, they are nothing like UKIP and Farage is way more vile than Salmond. And I would vote tent times over for the SNP before I'd vote for UKIP.

However a lot of the voters for bother are of the same mentality and that is what is scary. People will always vote for the wrong reasons.

I'm sick of the anti-English attitude that seems to be coming out of the muck heap with this referendum. And there is a LOT. I am Scottish born and bred, I've lived in the same area my whole life...however I don't have a strong local accent which is enough for people to think I am English. This has caused me issues my whole life! IMHO it's as disgusting as the stuff spouted from the gobs of the UKIP supporters.

People can be so fucking stupid, but it's always been like that and it always will!

[montysma1]

In terms of racism, I have been on the receiving end of anti Scottish , and sometimes felt that every time I spoke some arsehole would feel the need to parrot my words back to me in some bizarre pseudo Scottish accent. So tedious.

Anecdotes about anti English comment is not evidence that a whole country or movement are racist, just that there are nutters everywhere. Including England.

Actually, when Farage came to Scotland he was laughed out of town, In England there is a worry that he is electable. What does that say about about the more xenophobic nation?

[merrymouse]

The OP did not ask what the readers of uk broadsheets thought. The question was about general perceptions. General perceptions tend to come from headlines, not the inside of a broadsheet.

A large proportion of people in the uk have no interest in politics, although they will raise an eyebrow when somebody does something funny of outrageous.

You are grabbing and shaking vigorously the wrong end if the stick.

[Roseformeplease]

I live in Scotland but am British (born in Yorkshire so I am first and foremost a Yorkshirewoman, then British, then English). Near where I live there is "English go Home" scrawled in paint. It has been there for years. A very Senior member of the SNP drives past it frequently - the party of government. At no point has he used his influence to have it removed. He probably smiles secretively to himself whenever he sees it.

The problem with the "No" vote is that the "No" voters are actually fairly scared of the SNP and the rabid Nats. I work in a place where I have no doubt tha 3/4 of my colleagues are definite "No" voters. Yet it is not discussed because we have one rabid Nat and we all find his views intimidating and his views tip over from reason into being quite scary. We don't want to engage with him so we keep quiet. I just hope that this is reflected across Scotland and that the quiet ones are "No" too.

As for Farage - he is a huge joke and, as someone said up thread, he is very unlikely to have any genuine power or form a real government. I just wish Clegg hadn't legitimised him by debating on TV with him.

[Aboyandabunny]

I think the stick is in your hands. Put it down and buy a decent newspaper and inform yourself. The general consensus used to be the earth was flat and the moon was made of cheese. A little learning and research and knowledge changed that.
Is it true btw that hurricanes hardly happen in Hampshire?

[MelonadeAgain]

The problem with the "No" vote is that the "No" voters are actually fairly scared of the SNP and the rabid Nats. I work in a place where I have no doubt tha 3/4 of my colleagues are definite "No" voters. Yet it is not discussed because we have one rabid Nat and we all find his views intimidating and his views tip over from reason into being quite scary. We don't want to engage with him so we keep quiet

This is my feeling as well. Theres a definite lack of tolerance in the air, and I find it borders on menacing at times, as if there is very little to hold it back from turning into something much stronger and more sinister. I do feel inhibited from expressing my views without a cloak of anonymity for protection, because I am mainly worried that it will somehow affect my job. I'm also certain that my husband didn't get a job because he wasn't an SNP supporter, but I won't go into that. But there simply isn't any broad political spectrum here like in any successful good to live in country, its all left wing. Or at least it calls itself left wing...

I'm so sick of my newsfeed on FB being filled with propaganda, and I don't see how comments like "Feck the rabid English scum" etc are not racist.

I'm also sick of this growing obsession with being Scottish. So many "commentators" on tv start every interview with "I'm Scottish and proud to be a Scot" or similar. Yes, very good, but I cannot think of any other nationalities who do this with such consistent monotony.

Almost every week on tv there are programmes about being Scottish. I'm not actually against independence - currently undecided, but I don't want to end up living in the Socialist Scottish People's Republic of Scotland, where you aren't allowed to have "alternative" views without being harassed by both your fellow people and the State. I could imagine an independent Scottish state becoming very adept at making people's lives very awkward but in a seemingly legal way.

Maybe I'm getting paranoid because the atmosphere is getting to me. I hope so actually!

[TheBogQueen]

I am english in Scotland and feel that any anti-english feeling is neither here nor there really. I'm not some sort of oppressed minority, much tougher being black, asian or eastern european in England right now. It would be ridiculous to claim any sort of martyrdom for being English in Scotland. Am not interested in it. And I've not noticed any anti-english feeling, if anything Scots are rather reticent and apologetic about it...and also curious about what I think.


What I am interested in is the possibility that a better way of life could be achieved with social democratic values I believe in. The current Westminster government are a shower and the Labour party seem to be enthusiastic about going the same way.

I feel a stranger in my own country. When I go back to London I hardly recognise it. I don't share its values.

[TheBogQueen]

Melonade - I think yu are living in a different country to me

I don't want to end up living in the Socialist Scottish People's Republic of Scotland, where you aren't allowed to have "alternative" views without being harassed by both your fellow people and the State

I mean come on...

[MelonadeAgain]

No, really I'm not. I'm suggesting what could happen on independence. Its not as if it hasn't happened before, in other countries.

You are already harassed here for having non-left wing, non-nationalist views already.

Seriously, what other country in Europe now has a purely left wing, socialist political spectrum?

[merrymouse]

You have no idea where I live. Hampsire is just a random county on the south coast of England.

Again, I am not making any comment on whether people outside scotland should be interested in Scottish politics, just stating that they aren't. I am sure people in Scotland generally couldn't give a toss about many things happening in the south east.

Isn't that rather the point of independence?

[TheBogQueen]

My experience of harassment was people being stabbed in streets for having the wrong skin colour and NF marches of skin heads up the high street. In Britain, in the 1970's/80's/90's. Nothing in Scotland is comparable to that.

What I find odd is that at the heart of your position is the idea that Scotland is simply not capable of running a country - not for economic/structural reasons but because it will descend into some jackboot communist state

There is no evidence that this could or would ever happen. Why would it?

[Aboyandabunny]

I refer to your post at 17:12 on 24/04/2014 (yesterday) where you state that questions regarding independence cannot be answered easily from Hampshire. How do you know?
Is this the general consensus you speak of?.

[MelonadeAgain]

TheBogQueen of course harassment doesn't only constitute stabbing and racism.

I don't believe I did say that Scotland isn't capable of running a country. Although I don't think the present lot in power would make a very good job of running the country. Can you stop with the Scotland obsession thing? I'm not that bothered about Scotland in particular to have that rigid a view about it, beyond having to be bothered by moving away if I felt oppressed. I'd actually love to see a successful Scotland with a healthy political spectrum and tolerance. Although I'm not sure small countries are the way to go.

There is no evidence that this could or would ever happen. Why would it?

Yep, that's the way the SNP goes. On and on and on, implying that people they are idiots for having views different to them, how they are right, everyone else is "foolish", or a "coward sorry fearty", etc.. I've heard it all before. Good luck with persuading higher rate taxpayers to hang around to listen to that stuff.

merrymouse I'm actually going to Hampshire on holiday next week (always wanted to visit the New Forest again)! Don't worry, I'm not one of them. I need a break from the atmosphere tbh.

[MelonadeAgain]

And surely the point merrymouse is making (and you can see why decent people feel oppressed into not speaking out about the subject) is that not everyone is as obsessed by the Scottish independence issue as fervent nationalists are? However I think theres a certain loss of perspective that doesn't let that sink in.

[merrymouse]

I could have said Hampshire, Surrey, Birmingham, Liverpool or London. Hampshire just happens to be quite far away from Scotland.

An informed opinion (as opposed to a knee jerk reaction) depends on a sound knowledge of Scottish education, economics and law. If you honestly believe most people in England have been busy genning up on the Scottish economy over the last few months so they can have interesting conversations with their work colleagues or perhaps advise those north of the border I am afraid you might be disappointed to find they are more interested in the World Cup.

This is not to cast any slur on Scotland.

[Roseformeplease]

merrymouse - We up here in Scotland get the same national tv news as you and, in many cases read the same newspapers (there are Scottish editions but they are little different). Today programme this morning was talking about Ed Miliband's speech in Scotland. It is on the BBC 6 o'clock news. It has been a key feature of the Times' coverage recently.

If you don't know much about it, can I suggest you turn on your television or radio or buy a decent newspaper? The sad thing is, it will affect people in Hampshire, Surrey and Birmingham just as much as those of us living in Scotland. In the event of a "Yes" vote the negotiations will be complex, expensive and divisive. It will cost rUK taxpayers a vast amount of money, just as it will those of us who live in Scotland. The battle about Sterling does not seem to be going away - that is YOUR currency in Hampshire. What about immigration? The SNP want an open door policy. That will mean people moving to Scotland and then travelling south, perhaps ending up in Hampshire.

Really, your ignorance of UK politics is astounding. Education and Law are devolved but "Scottish economics" is actually "British economics" and a "Yes" vote will cost.

[BigBoobiedBertha]

I'm from Hampshire. I find it all quite interesting actually and I think that it appears often enough in the media, it isn't ignored but then it wouldn't be because at the moment the BBC and the papers include Scotland in their national coverage.

I think it is an issue that is important for the whole of Britain I am not sure why the referendum isn't for everybody in the British isles since it has am impact on us all. Why are we letting a tiny minority of the British population decide the future of our shared union? It is like having a divorce where only one party has to sign the papers and the other side has no ability to contest the petition.

[Aboyandabunny]

Interesting point Bertha, out of interest what do you think about Cornwall's minority status granted this week?

[montysma1]

Melonade , you sound ridiculous. I have news feed from probably around 20 different facebook YES groups and I have had NOT ONE piece saying fuck English scum. Plenty of berating of Westminster/ david cameron/tories, but NOTHING anti English in the way you describe. Dont you think its odd that your feed full of this kind of comment. Very odd. Can you link to it?

Was it you who said your first Glasgow grafitti said "Fuck the English". Where was that exactly? I have never seen anything like that. Much more likely to say "fuck the pope". The average Glaswegian nutter is far more interested in fighting with other Glasgow nutters than fighting the English.

Also you exihibit a dislike of Scotland and the Scots, bordering on racist. You make sweeping generalisations about the national psyche " no idea of self mocking humour"..........???? Seriously, to make a generalisation of my own, scottish humour is hugely based on self mockery and irony.

You state that you encounter "vehement" reactions if you say anything negative because its not allowed. The reality is that moaning about councils/government/schools is a national hobby, so the expression of "negativity "is most certainly allowed.

What WILL get a vehement negative response is being patronised or condescended to. And reading your posts I suspect you do both.

You feel threatened if you state you are a NO voter. You describe a country and people that neither me nor my English husband recognise. I am heartened actually, that the majority, (not all) of English people on my facebook who choose to live and work here ( jings, I even quite like them, what with them being English and everything, and mostly i manage not to menace them) are firmly YES

It is disengenuine or incredibly "english centric" or just plain paranoid,to make this campaign out to be about Anti Englishness. England is irrelevant to peoples decision to vote YES. Its about hoping to create a better Scotland. It is about Scotland.