to wonder why the SNP aren't getting the same bashing that UKIP are?

[kinkytoes]

I'm not a political expert by any means and I know there has been a lot of discussion on both topics here.

But both these parties have the same ultimate aim - independence for their countries. Why is no-one calling SNP supporters racist? Not that I think they should be - just curious about the apparent double standard.

[EverythingIsAwesome]

I am studying Higher history under CfE, and there is no racism and it certainly isnt all Scottish focussed! We are studying Irish history at the moment, and have recently looked at the Russian revolutions and Scottish migration. Our lecturers love the new CfE.

[TheBogQueen]

And aren't we talking rather about bigotry (imagined or otherwise) rather than race?

[OTheHugeManatee]

Everything 'Much' might be a bit strong. But I don't think you need to look far online to find cybernat thickos posting crap like 'anyone in favour if the english is a cunt' and that kind of stuff. Y'know, the kind of crap that gets UKIP thickos labelled as racist twats when they post it about Europe.

My point wasn't that there are more racist thickos in one camp than the other, but that they are received differently and that that double standard is based on a misapprehension about the status of the UK these days. I realised after posting though that the thread has moved on somewhat. As you were

[PigletJohn]

Hovis

Was that from the same people who say that an independent rUK will want to form a currency union with a foreign country?

[HoVis2001]

PigletJohn

As I said, I don't want to de-rail the thread by talking about the specific issues (currency etc), as they would each take up a thread on their own!

However, I think the thing to remember about the material produced by the SNP / Yes Scotland is that they are expressed plans and ideals. And as a famous Scottish poet puts it, the best laid plans etc...! I don't think that the details of independence will necessarily work out exactly as they are being proposed right now. I'm not voting Yes because of the plans being put forward, but because of the ideals behind them. And with regards to bigotry I personally feel that the ideals expressed by independence are those of inclusivity and increased open-ness (among other things).

[HoVis2001]

*expressing plans and ideals.

[Weegiemum]

Well, Wilson my dc get educated in the centre of Glasgow where there's a vibrant Gaelic culture with lots of native speakers, music, choirs etc. we lived in the Outer Hebrides for 10 years and I'm delighted to pay towards any child being educated in Gaelic.

My dd2 has had 5 years of SN and we also got full help, funding etc for her issues. GM education didn't stop that being available. Her serious mobility issues were dealt with appropriately - maybe Glasgow City Council is just better at this sort of thing than Edinburgh?

[WilsonFrickett]

Maybe. I wouldn't hold them up as a bastion of anything particularly good tbh.

The point however is Gaelic medium education appears to be fantastic but for a tiny number of Scotland's children. I don't believe councils should be funding it. They don't fund dual education in any modern languages after all. I don't see why children of Chinese heritage should pay to go to Saturday school, while Gaelic education is free. That honestly makes no sense to me as a la'land Scot.

[CorporateRockWhore]

Manatee well some dick posting on the internet isn't exactly the official yes campaign is it?

So no, much of the nationalist campaign is not overtly racist. That's actually blatantly bullshit.

Akin to me posting on here saying hedgehogs are green and the Daily Fail doing a story saying all MNers are campaigning for hedgehogs to be dyed green.

[affafantoosh]

Same here makoshark. Some of our local elected SNP councillors are English. I think when English people come here to live they have a unique view of the situation Scotland experiences with regard to our government. It is clear to them that this country does not share the aims of the elected Westminster parties.

[RedToothBrush]

It has to be said its a close call between which I think are the bigger twats.

I think UKIP win though.

[kinkytoes]

Don't worry about the minor derails I'm finding them interesting too - love hearing the views of anyone with a passionate interest in a subject. I've learnt a lot since joining MN on a variety of things I previously didn't know much about, and of course in return I try to impart my own wisdom where I think I can!

[OTheHugeManatee]

Corporate Though in fact UKIP's policies do get lumped in with what thickos who support them post on Facebook. Which is precisely my point about the double standard. I'm not trying to write the Scottish independence movement off as invalid based on spurious (or not so spurious, depending on where you look) racism.

For clarity, I don't really care which way Scotland votes so I don't have an axe to grind here. Democracy will have its way. I'm just intrigued by the contrast between the way UKIP's campaign for independence from Europe is discussed on MN, in comparison to the campaign of some Scots to separate from England. Both are based to an extent on a discourse of national identity but where, for the Scots, this is treated with respect, for the English it's treated as a racist dog-whistle. I think this has to do with mistaken post-colonial guilt. Was my point.

[TheBogQueen]

I don't even know why UKIP and the SNP are being compared. The SNP is in government in Scotland, you know, it has been in majority since 2007.

UKIP...er...wasn't Katy whatserface a candidate at one point?

[kinkytoes]

Oh, and thank you for not turning this into a bunfight, which I've seen happen on other threads - makes it so hard to follow the conversation.

[WilsonFrickett]

Well yes Bog I think one of the real questions should be 'why is the media giving a minority party (UKIP) such airtime and interest?'

I'm not voting Yes, but the SNP are the party of government in Scotland and their track record/policies etc speaks for themselves on things like immigration.

[CorporateRockWhore]

Manatee I think UKIP's independence from Europe is not the problem - the problem most people have with them is their blatant, frightening, scaremongering racism.

I don't think there's much of a comparison between 'I'd like to live in an independent, inclusive, multicultural Scotland please' and 'I'd like anyone not white or less than third-gen English out of my fucking country.'

[OTheHugeManatee]

Cos that's really what this fellow is saying

[CorporateRockWhore]

Ha ha good one!

[merrymouse]

I could be wrong, but I don't think most english people take the SNP seriously. most people don't think scotland will leave, and even if it did people aren't generally anxious about how that would affect the rest of the uk.

Ukip on the other hand represents the possibility of people with dodgy views and low intelligence having real power.

[Aboyandabunny]

I know Merry Scotland is such a silly little country and it's trifling politics well.....!!!!!

[WilsonFrickett]

Only if people with dodgy views and low intelligence vote them in Merry

[MelonadeAgain]

YANBU. I think a lot of people simply don't think there could be racism in Scotland, a modern country in a modern Europe. Theres also a lot of talk about how non-racist it is, how open to incomers, etc..

I'm not Scottish but live here. I've experienced racism.

Its fine if you tow the "Scotland is wonderful, the best country on earth" line. But if you dare to point out things about it that are not so rosy, or that the facts are skewed by the SNP, or make any sort of criticism, the vehemence is astonishing.

Its as if there is no gentle self mockery, no self criticism, no encouragement of alternative viewpoints or schools of thought. Most nationalities will have a healthy scepticism of their politicians and systems, not I find many Scots. I'm sure there are some who have a sense of perspective, but so many who do not.

And I find that worrying.

[merrymouse]

I didn't say it was silly. Just that rightly or wrongly people in England do not see Scottish independence as something that has much relevance to them.

Perhaps they would have been more concerned if the vote had taken place at a point in history (e.g. when there were still plenty of oil reserves or when Ireland was a Celtic tiger) when independence would have seemed more likely.

Also, the basic question - should scotland be independent? Is not offensive or bigoted in the way that UKIP's policies are. Whether or not any of the individuals involved are bigots is another question (and to be honest not one you can answer easily from hampshire),

[MelonadeAgain]

EverythingIsAwesome We are studying Irish history at the moment, and have recently looked at the Russian revolutions and Scottish migration. Our lecturers love the new CfE

Forgive me for saying this, but isn't the common theme there history of the oppressed with a strongly left wing bias? It sounds more like modern political history with a cut off point off around the 1920s.

Wouldn't it give a better and more useful to study of future university subjects including law, medicine and accounting, to study stuff like the Roman Empire and its development of trade and commerce, Greek foundations of modern philosophy, Anglo-Saxon and Danish colonisation of the British Isles, Scandinavian invasions of the north, and the main twentieth century wars?