Am I being unreaosnable to think that having kids shouldn't automatically give you more right to have the bank holidays off?

[KitKat1985]

Hello all.

Maybe Mumsnet isn't the best place to ask this question but I'm fed up. I work as a nurse in a hospital unit (open 24 hours, 365 days a week). It is, obviously, a fact of our job that the bank holidays need to be covered on the nursing rota, and I have no problem with this per se, as I accept that it's part of the job. What I am fed up is that my boss seems automatically to give the large majority of bank holiday working to those who are child-less, and gives priority to have the day off to the nursing staff who are parents. I could understand more if this was a child-care issue, but no, 95% of the parents where I work have partners / husbands who are also off on the bank holiday, so that there is already child-care available. I have just worked all 4 days of the Easter weekend, not spent any quality time with my husband, and missed one engagement party and family gathering because of work; and yet a lot of my colleagues with children have been off the whole 4 days (again). I'm down on the next rota to work May-day as well. Christmas and New Year is even worse (and causes a lot of staff tensions) as a lot of child-less staff find themselves working all over Christmas and New Year, inevitably leading to a lot of bad feeling against the nursing staff with children, who seem to automatically get priority to have the time off. I'm not anti-family (and am indeed, currently pregnant) but am I being unreasonable to think that the bank holiday working should be shared out a bit better? It's very difficult to discuss this issue with my ward manager, who has several children herself, and is very adamant about not working bank holidays as it's 'family time'.

Summer - I can't imagine anyone flaming you for your entirely reasonable post. Frankly sounds like if you've got a fault it's that you've let your co-worker become spoilt by being too reasonable the rest of the time!

Thank you Errol I was a bit nervous in posting about this situation given some of the viewpoints here. I should mention that I am the colleague in question's manager so I could quite happily lay down the law and dictate when I am taking my holidays and let her scrabble around this but I really keen to accommodate and work as a team - I just wish it would go both ways. I'm also aware however that if her complaint escalates to higher HR levels, there are people there who will take the viewpoint that she should have first dibs at the entire school closure period.

I have every bank holiday and school holiday off work. That is actually my contract. If people don't like it then tough.

But you sound FAR from a team player Monica. You even mentioned bribing people financially to do your Christmas Day. I find it quite frankly disgusting you haven't worked a Christmas Day for so long and if you were in my team is expect you to be made an example of tbh

is very adamant about not working bank holidays as it's 'family time'

YANBU.

Every body has the right to a family life. "Family" is not defined simply by having children at home.

And frankly rota injustices seem to make up about 65% of all conversation among NHS staff.

I am still smarting from having a request knocked back for my night hours to be reduced to less than 50% of my rota ( currently 65% + ) there are people who do more hours, same job, with only 10% n/s

I have 3 young children. Was told that changes were nor possible due to 'service demand' and 'cost'

The chances are you won't have to work Christmas Monica as you seem to railroad and bully others into doing it for you.
If I was a manger it would be done as those who worked it last year get it off the next and vice versa. No ifs buts or maybes and if you don't do your shift you face disciplinary

Sharon, I don't recall saying I bribed anyone to do Xmas for me, if I did I was lying, as I have never done that.

There are a LOT of people in my team sharon, being as how I have moved to a completely different place of work on average every 2 years it is not surprising that I have not worked Xmas for 12 years. I did before that though, and I have worked several boxing days and new years days. I have also (as I said) shared Xmas day/night with a childless colleague.

You'd expect me to be 'made an example of', for what?
Doing last minute duties when others fall down, deploying for 2 weeks with a few hours notice, covering shit shifts for other people so they can do things which are important to them. I'm glad I'm not on your team Sharon!

Boxing Day and New Year's Day is not Christmas Day Monica. And I for one am very glad you are not on my time

Or team for that matter

No, shouldn't be automatic. However, if you don't have school age children you are far more able to take advantage of mid week and term time days off. therefore i would imagine that in most places you would find more parents needing to take time off around bank holidays and booking their leave far in advance.

starfish if you have a term time contract then obviously that is different.

It's not like you are trying to book 4 consecutive weeks, in fact the entire month of August and actually expecting your colleagues to cancel their annual leave to accommodate the fact that you have a child.

I work in a small team and we self roster but get on well enough that holidays are discussed well in advance. It's not just children that are accommodated it's occasions that are special to any of the team members so I'll work a weekend if it's someone's anniversary, mums birthday etc so because i'm flexible for them they are flexible for me when it matters to me

The problem with this is that there could be a kind of "groupthink" and a set of values that becomes dominant. If you don't fit in, then you might be screwed, in your system. It could be quite a subtle way of bullying. And I could imagine coming into that team if one were "different" (single, gay, childless) a person might find it very difficult to speak up.

What if my important "special" event doesn't fit the rest of the team's opinions about what a special event is?

My DS is gap year travelling & I travelled to meet him for Christmas. That took more than a day. Otherwise I'd have been on my own. But by your system, my "special occasion" wouldn't have been as important as someone living with small children, who didn't need to take 3-4 days to travel etc.

Self rostering is a minefield IME.

Especially if the majority of the team have children, it makes people who have older children or no children feel somehow guilty and they end up working shifts that they didnt want to.

Some parents do have a way of trying to guilt trip people with older children or no children.
"Oh you wanted the Easter weekend off? Oooh so did I, I promised little x that I would spend this weekend doing an egg hunt, going on a picnic and going to granny's house. But never mind. I suppose you need a break as well. I bet you are looking forward to sitting at home doing nothing- oh I wish I had the chance to do that. But I don't ever get a minute alone. Not that I want to. I mean, I hardly spend any time with little x as I am always working or rushing about. That's why I was looking forward to Easter. But it's ok, you booked it first. Ill be a bit quicker next time. Trouble is, there aren't any more long weekends are there? I guess you could just take a long weekend whenever you wanted though....oh you will swap your annual leave for me? Are you sure? I don't want to ruin your plans..."

I used to work in mental health and have always taken my turn working the bank hols and Christmas, we used to work every other Christmas. When I worked shifts we all used to split it to make sure everyone did their fair share. There was always someone who would chance their arm and think they could have it all their own way but they got short shrift from my old line manager, she had 5 DC's and used to take her turn too. I think that's the only way to do it in that kind of environment to avoid the inevitable and justifiable resentment that builds up when you handle things like this fairly.

That's exactly how people tend to behave tantrums

Sorry meant to say when you don't handle things fairly.

I do get pissed off when my childless colleagues book off three block weeks of school holidays ( and not as a result of their DPs being teachers etc) meaning I can't use my leave ...

Gosh, how dare childless people want holidays at a certain time even though they have no school-based reason for doing so?

Before I had DCs I welcomed the opportunity to have a holiday out side school holidays ' saw it a definite perk. Can't understand why others don't feel the same.

And there it is. Can't understand and so think it's OK to take your leave when you want it but not OK for others to take their leave when they want it.

Forces are a bit different Monica may have people who would rather have the Xmas shift in return for a long weekend. Tbh in my younger days pre children in the forces if I was drawn out the hat for Xmas period people like myself would volunteer Xmas and Boxing Day and the local with children would cover the rest of the time. I used to volunteer for the Xmas period for the amount of time off whilst covering Xmas and then still get annual leave off as well. It was very different to working in an office etc.

My very simple rule in life is to treat people how they treat me.

If everybody plays fair and shares the shit so to speak I will, if possible, be as flexible as they need.

If anyone starts telling me any part of my life is unimportant they can get fucked frankly. It immediately gives me the green light to not give a shiney shit when their mother is visiting from mars for the first time in a decade and they need to swop shifts/annual leave at short notice.

Monika, are you seriously suggesting that childless person x (let's say they're an observant Christian, shall we?) is unreasonable to not celebrate Christmas Day on another day, so that person y who has children can play up the whole Santa thing which cannot possibly be moved to another day?

Seriously?

when dh started in the nhs 50 years ago he knew his shifts a year in advance because they worked on a 2 week rolling rota which was totally rigid and predictable for everyone so no-one could 'play' the system. nowadays with e-rosters, self rostering etc a lot of our colleagues do not know their off-duty more than a month ahead which makes it difficult to plan anything and gives all the lead swingers the opportunity to play the system to get off the days they want and shifts get moved around depending on who shouts the loudest - sometimes flexibility and 'family friendly' leads to a lot of perceived unfairness.

kitkat yanbu. I worked many years in the nhs as a nurse, both childless and with children. BH should be shared fairly and in the case of the Easter weekend then 2 days off each seems reasonable. Xmas is always a mind field. Wherever I've worked you've either done Xmas or new year, not both. As a manager I would never have prioritised people with small dc to have Xmas off as it's important that everyone has the opportunity to do so. Fair enough if people then swap if they don't mind working it though.

My dh is a doctor and my dc are small. If he's on call on Xmas day then that's just the way it is. As long as he has some time off over the festive period then that's fine. Yes, it's lovely for us both to be there to see their faces when they realise FC has visited but it's really not the end of the world otherwise.

Can you talk to your matron or HR or the RCN to get some advice? Your current system does seem very unfair.

Kitkat, I'm going to revise my answer if that's ok , I got caught up in the Xmas day thing.

As a line manager, my default thinking would be:

School holiday periods where nobody has expressed that they want leave at all = priority for those with school age kids

However, if someone with no children or older children had a reason for preferring their leave then, then I would reassess my default thinking and apply priorities as appropriate - just because someone has school age kids they are not a priority.

Bank holidays are just holidays, so same as above - no special significance attached. (So for the Easter example, a Christian who wanted it for religious reasons would prioritise over 'just' kids).

The only significance for parents of young kids for me is Xmas morning. Xmas morning is when Santa comes, if you celebrate Xmas morning in this way then that edges on priority for Xmas morning.

If a childless employee had an actual reason for wanting Xmas specifically (e.g. family gathering etc), then I would try to find a work round to satisfy everyone (maybe childless employee works the morning, and parent works afternoon).

If it came down to 2 people, both with equally valid reasons, parent or not, then I would make my decision based how much each individual puts themselves out otherwise. E.g. do they offer to cover shifts at short notice falldowns or other 'shit' times, or do they stay quiet and wait until nominated, have they volunteered to work boxing day/New year's eve etc already.

Hope that makes sense!

Thomyorke, that is exactly what I've done my entire career, volunteered to work some things to have a better chance re getting Xmas day off. I often cover call etc for the rest of the Xmas period.

Woozle, please see my explanation above to answer your question.

Oh, and re Easter for example, it's the Friday or the Monday as a rule, not both, children or not.

God Monica you sound like one of those boring people who think having kids immediately gives you more rights and status than others. It doesnt