Am I being unreaosnable to think that having kids shouldn't automatically give you more right to have the bank holidays off?

[KitKat1985]

Hello all.

Maybe Mumsnet isn't the best place to ask this question but I'm fed up. I work as a nurse in a hospital unit (open 24 hours, 365 days a week). It is, obviously, a fact of our job that the bank holidays need to be covered on the nursing rota, and I have no problem with this per se, as I accept that it's part of the job. What I am fed up is that my boss seems automatically to give the large majority of bank holiday working to those who are child-less, and gives priority to have the day off to the nursing staff who are parents. I could understand more if this was a child-care issue, but no, 95% of the parents where I work have partners / husbands who are also off on the bank holiday, so that there is already child-care available. I have just worked all 4 days of the Easter weekend, not spent any quality time with my husband, and missed one engagement party and family gathering because of work; and yet a lot of my colleagues with children have been off the whole 4 days (again). I'm down on the next rota to work May-day as well. Christmas and New Year is even worse (and causes a lot of staff tensions) as a lot of child-less staff find themselves working all over Christmas and New Year, inevitably leading to a lot of bad feeling against the nursing staff with children, who seem to automatically get priority to have the time off. I'm not anti-family (and am indeed, currently pregnant) but am I being unreasonable to think that the bank holiday working should be shared out a bit better? It's very difficult to discuss this issue with my ward manager, who has several children herself, and is very adamant about not working bank holidays as it's 'family time'.

[OddFodd]

I'd speak to HR. Your ward manager is unfairly discriminating against the childless in her roster allocation. Or can you speak to your union for advice?

[KitKat1985]

Oh, and in my humble experience a lot more people usually want Christmas off than want New Years off. Not everyone who is child-less wants to go on an all night piss up on New Years eve over seeing their family on Christmas day.

[BeeInYourBonnet]

I have a good leave entitlement, but struggle to use it each year as it is SO hard to get leave approved for school holidays. My concern is not spending high days and holidays with family and friends, I am concerned about childcare for my DCs.

I would be perfectly happy to work every BH, safe in the knowledge my DH is off to look after the DCs. Family time for family-times-sake is a luxury we don't have.

However, and I know IABU, I do get pissed off when my childless colleagues book off three block weeks of school holidays ( and not as a result of their DPs being teachers etc) meaning I can't use my leave and have to sort out a nightmare concoction of different childcare arrangements. Before I had DCs I welcomed the opportunity to have a holiday out side school holidays ' saw it a definite perk. Can't understand why others don't feel the same.

[PoundingTheStreets]

This is such a difficult issue because it is highly emotive.

On the one hand, trying to find childcare cover for some holidays - Christmas day is a prime example - is nigh-on impossible for many. Parents having Christmas Day off is not always about wanting the family day together but about not being able to get someone to look after the children on that day.

Surely no one would really expect someone to forego a career they are very good at for the sake of one day a year? That's bordering on discrimination, particularly against women who are still take default responsibility for children in most families.

I think it would be better to allow parents some flexibility for just that sort of thing. It benefits us all as a society rather than denying, for example, single mothers jobs because they have fewer childcare solutions available to them.

At the same time, however, there needs to be greater recognition that it is not only children that bring responsibilities. What about the person caring for an elderly relative or a sick spouse, for example? A good organisation should recognise that these people may have just the same issues as say the single mother.

Some careers come with the knowledge that you will need to work on public holidays from time to time. If you aren't happy to accept that in principle, you shouldn't join up for that career, but a forward-thinking society should recognise that few people in life don't have some responsibility or issue at some point in their lives where they wouldn't benefit from a little flexibility and consideration from their employers.

What I'd like to see is a society in which life doesn't come to a standstill during public holidays. Why do so many nurseries close, for example? Is it a little-known fact that only people who work monday-friday, 9-5 have children? Don't parents work shifts like other people? Why is it so much harder for people to organise home care for their elderly mother on Easter Monday? If all workers are paid double time for their work on public holidays, it shouldn't be a problem that fees for childcare/home care are double on those days either. The problem is that these sorts of services often shut down. And that's completely illogical in an increasingly global economy.

[SuzzieScotland]

Yanbu.

Friends hubbie works for the police and as they don't have children most of the summer is off limits for holiday.

[NotNewButNameChanged]

Monica - I no longer work in the NHS but in the job before my current one, there was no volunteering. The management required cover for bank holidays (although we were closed Xmas Day) and basically those without children were always picked. Similarly, non-parents were told they couldn't have August off - only those with children (which of course meant that if you were married to a teacher but had no kids, finding holiday time was pretty difficult).

In my current job, I am the manager and we do all bank holidays (and we are open on all except Xmas Day) by a rota and I include myself on it and it is genuinely worked out by mutual agreement.

Oh, I don't have a boyfriend. I am a man and currently single.

[monicalewinski]

Kitkat, you suspect you wouldn't have got it - did you actually ask?

I agree btw re Easter etc - working Easter or any other bh is not a problem, children or no; as I said, Xmas day is my bugbear. I would work Xmas night, or even Xmas afternoon - in fact, actually it's only Xmas morning I really think I'm bothered about.

[sharonthewaspandthewineywall]

Bee you not having Childcare is not your colleagues problem. That time of year may be special to them, an anniversary, family members birthday, visiting friends who are back from uni etc. there is plenty of provision for Childcare in school holidays

[Ludways]

YANBU, that's very unfair.

[themockingjay]

I would be interested to see how You feel about working Christmas and holidays after you've had your dc though OP.

I really don't mean that in an insulting way btw. I was only discussing this with my husband this weekend as we have been invited away at Christmas and I have already spoken to a few women at work who have told me they'd be happy to work my Christmas day if I get it for cash and a selection box

But I was saying to my husband before I had DC I was in the same position as you I felt it was unfair and I still do for that matter that the select few get Christmas off. I wanted Christmas off rather than new year. However now I have 2 DC I wish I could have worked 10 in a row if it had guaranteed me 10 in a row off with my DC now but We all know thats not how it works with nursing a lot of the times its whether your face fits children or not.
My ugly mug doesn't apparently when it comes to off duty.

But I do agree with you the system is unfair. If I want Christmas off now I pay for it literally. I had the Christmas my ds was born on off as I was on mat leave. When I returned to work last year the -cow woman who does our off duty insisted I had to work as I'd had day off the year before... well it was actually mat leave.

Not to mention this was my ds's first birthday and first Christmas and I'd worked 6 Christmases in a row before having dc. As it happened I got Christmas off as sick leave as I spent it in hospital having a late miscarriage so missed my sons first birthday and Christmas. So Apparently she's going to make sure I work this year after 'getting out of the last one'

I just hope when you have dc the women you work with recognise all the holidays you've worked and do the right thing letting you take your fair share of holidays off.

[KitKat1985]

You're rather missing my point monicalewinski. If the rota working had been shared out (say everyone worked 2 out of the 4 days) then I would have just accepted it as bad luck if a social arrangement had happened to coincide with one of the days I was working. It's the fact that I am unable to yet again do anything over the entire 4-day weekend that has annoyed me, meaning I inevitably have to miss every social event that gets arranged for that weekend.

[sharonthewaspandthewineywall]

Monica if it's your bugbear why choose a career that operates 365 days a year? Your current manager could leave at anytime and a new manager could decide to implement a new fairer system for all (as many where I worked found out, to their detriment) surely it's not a surprise you may need to work a day the service still runs?

[Grennie]

I think the issue is that too many look at this situation from their pov only, and not others. It might be easy if you have children to see it from a mothers pov, and not see all the other permutations.

So my friend who cares for her mum, carers go in during the day while she is at work, would not want to leave her elderly mother alone on xmas day. And it would be alone as the carers only go in for 15 minutes once a day, to deliver lunch and drinks.

Others don't want to miss extended family gatherings. Others would be totally alone over xmas if they did not have the time off to travel to family on public transport. I always remember on here the woman who worked in London who couldn't get Xmas Eve off because it was given to people with kids. She didnt have a car, and by the time she finished work, the trains were no longer running to her hometown. She spent Xmas day totally alone in a bedsit.

That is why a rota really is the only fair way to organise this.

[monicalewinski]

Notnew, there is always an opportunity to volunteer.

You go to the roster person/line manager and you have a conversation.

You explain that there is something terribly important that you would like to do/attend, and say "I realise it's a day that is quite contentious, but I will happily work any of the other shit days that other people would rather not work".

Managers are not mind readers; they do not know that x person has a particular want on a particular day. The default thinking is that school holiday period=those with school age children, but that does not mean you cannot request it yourself if you are childless.

[sharonthewaspandthewineywall]

The mockingjay. As I stated earlier, I didn't start working in the nhs until I HAD children. I still strongly felt I (and others) should do their fair share of Christmas days. I think if you are a team player you are keen to lead by example

[KitKat1985]

As I say above, I'm not against people with kids wanting Christmas off. Indeed, I can understand that. What annoys me where I work is that a lot of my colleagues with kids want all of the Christmas period and all of the New Year period etc off. I could totally sympathise with working Christmas day for my colleagues with kids if my colleagues with kids offered to work Boxing day for example, but this never happens.

[themockingjay]

Sharon? I'm a bit confused I wasn't responding to you but the OP and was agreeing with her

[sharonthewaspandthewineywall]

You said you wondered how the op would feel after having kids. I was pointing out my perspective as an nhs worker who has always had kids

[sharonthewaspandthewineywall]

Since being in the nhs that is not since forever

[Ubik1]

It's very difficult. The whole NHS philosophy on working parents is very much about allowing parents to work flexibly and to have a work / family balance if you have children.

Not in my bit of the NHS. I have just had my first Easter 'off' in three years ie: just one nightshift on Friday. I worked nightshift all over Xmas week eve though I have 3 young children ("mummy why are you never here on special occasions?")

The rotas are doled out and nobody gets preferential treatment except in exceptional circumstances ie: friend had Xmas week off because her husband had just walked out on her and 3 children.

I have access to parental leave but that is rarely grated. There is also carers leave for people.

It's really, really hard for some people to get childcare but it's also really hard to get family time together especially if you work weekends. I can't remember the last time we spent three days uninterrupted doing stuff together - must have been July last year

[Pobblewhohasnotoes]

If you work somewhere with 24 hour care you should expect to work nights, weekends and bank holidays just like everyone else. If you object, well go and find a job in clinic or day care.

Where I work we have to work at least one 'bad' shift over Christmas and new year and luckily a few people who don't celebrate Christmas offer to work it.

I never assume that because I have kids my life is more important than anyone else's, as much as I like not working bank holidays.

[EllaFitzgerald]

I'm very lucky indeed where I work. Out of a team of twelve people, I'm the only person who doesn't have children, and we work on a 'first come, first served' basis, but we discuss what leave we all want and compromise. I don't particularly care about taking the school holidays off, so I'm happy to have last choice, but my colleagues remember this when it comes to Christmas and are happy for me to take that time off so we can travel to DH's family.

It always baffles me that childless people are expected to justify why they would possibly want to take time off at certain times of year and if they can't come up with a good enough reason, then they're being selfish. If we decided we quite fancied spending Christmas Day sat at home in our pants, eating Matchmakers and watching repeats of Storage Hunters, then that's our business and we're just as entitled to do that as others are to watch their children open presents. It's about compromise.

[monicalewinski]

Sharon, I am in the forces - I have had probably around 50+ line managers, if not more over the last 19 years. I have never worked Xmas day, and neither has my husband (since children), other than if we were deployed the chances are we won't have to.

I have volunteered to do work/duties before and after Xmas day, I have volunteered to be 'on call' on Xmas evening (split Xmas day and night between myself and my colleague with no kids - he had the phone during the day, I had it for the night.

I also help out others if they need a last minute favour, and have covered call/duties etc for them, they then repay the favour if necessary; we mostly all work like this, because we are a team.

[themockingjay]

ahhhh now I get ya I thought you though I was saying OP was bu and I'm not, I thought I'd worded my post badly.

No I was just curious because I do wish I could have every holiday, Christmas and weekend off now I have children but Obviously I don't express this to anyone except my non nursing friends when I'm being a drama queen martyr

I think if you have Children and expect every holiday you're in the wrong job.

[FryOneFatManic]

My DP works in a garden centre, where the policy is that leave is not allowed in the weeks that include a bank holiday. These are the busy times.

Means I'm the one who has to sacrifice leave for school holidays, but luckily the rest of my team don't have children, and so far, there have been no issues over who has what time off.

However, I do put my leave request in well in advance, and totally accept that there may be times when I can't get the leave I'd like. DP and I chose to have children, so the child care is our responsibility, not the responsibility of our managers to juggle leave or ban childless people from certain times.

I used to be an office manager and all leave was first come, first served, and I included myself in that, so that people knew that having children was no excuse to jump the list to get the leave you wanted.

I'm totally on the OP's side here. It's nice if you can someone to swap shifts with, but parents do not, in my opinion, have an automatic entitlement to time off.