Am I being unreaosnable to think that having kids shouldn't automatically give you more right to have the bank holidays off?

[KitKat1985]

Hello all.

Maybe Mumsnet isn't the best place to ask this question but I'm fed up. I work as a nurse in a hospital unit (open 24 hours, 365 days a week). It is, obviously, a fact of our job that the bank holidays need to be covered on the nursing rota, and I have no problem with this per se, as I accept that it's part of the job. What I am fed up is that my boss seems automatically to give the large majority of bank holiday working to those who are child-less, and gives priority to have the day off to the nursing staff who are parents. I could understand more if this was a child-care issue, but no, 95% of the parents where I work have partners / husbands who are also off on the bank holiday, so that there is already child-care available. I have just worked all 4 days of the Easter weekend, not spent any quality time with my husband, and missed one engagement party and family gathering because of work; and yet a lot of my colleagues with children have been off the whole 4 days (again). I'm down on the next rota to work May-day as well. Christmas and New Year is even worse (and causes a lot of staff tensions) as a lot of child-less staff find themselves working all over Christmas and New Year, inevitably leading to a lot of bad feeling against the nursing staff with children, who seem to automatically get priority to have the time off. I'm not anti-family (and am indeed, currently pregnant) but am I being unreasonable to think that the bank holiday working should be shared out a bit better? It's very difficult to discuss this issue with my ward manager, who has several children herself, and is very adamant about not working bank holidays as it's 'family time'.

[DrHamstertoyou]

Whodares I totally agree with you that arrangements in my team are by mutual agreement and that it would be a problem if someone didn't agree.

[monicalewinski]

Grennie, in the situation you described with your gram, I would have volunteered to work so you could go off - as would others, I'm sure.

It is the 'I want to spend Xmas day with my boyfriend, it's discrimination' arguments that rile me.

[OnlyLovers]

monica, yes, I know it was meant to be snarky.

You might find it ridiculous that an adult wants to celebrate Christmas on Christmas Day, but people's family and friends may well disagree. Should an entire group of people –family, friends or both – really have to move their whole Christmas Day so one person's child or children can have it on that day? I don't think that's unselfish at all.

[poppetpuppet]

I'm also of the school of thought that Christmas Day (during the day) is different. The "magic" of Christmas only lasts for a few short years! My DH and I were both key workers and had never had a Christmas together.if was the thought that my children wouldn't get Christmas with a parent that was my main reason to leave an otherwise enjoyable career.

[dayshiftdoris]

It's the sense of entitlement that some people with children portray in the NHS that feeds into a whole bigger issue of them not being able not wanting to support those with genuine issues around childcare.

FWIW I worked every Christmas, bank holiday, summer, etc and it stood for nothing when I was a struggling single parent... Why? Because I was surrounded by people saying how they 'needed' time with their families when infact it was a 'want'... Managers were sick of it and as such I wasn't taken seriously because so many other times they had given flexible working just for people to take the mick and still be doing their school hours with children at uni

I did get my flexible working and I worked Christmas, new year shifts as I had childcare... I offered a shift everytime I had family down to the point my family stopped coming down or one occasion rang me at work to say they had decided to go home

YANBU OP as your selfish colleagues will ultimately force managers hands to crack down and then there will be no winners...

Needless to say I am off the register these days

[OnlyLovers]

It is the 'I want to spend Xmas day with my boyfriend, it's discrimination' arguments that rile me.

Why? Why is one person's personal life and situation with loved ones less important than another's?

[SummerRemembered]

YANBU

This reminds me of the part-time job I had at 16 in a well known department store. There were two lists on the wall in the back room - one being those who must have their holidays in the school breaks and the other being a list of people who were expressly forbidden for even requesting so much as a day off at those times. I was on the second list and was therefore told that I could only take time off during term time. The problem was that as a 16 year old weekend worker, I needed to fall in with the school holidays too. It took about two months of a group of us in the same position wrangling around several members of staff at progressively higher managerial levels before I could finally get someone to see sense and understand that as school pupils, We were bound by the same rules as parents of school pupils. All seemed to calm down for a while after that but then I was told three days before my brother's wedding (at which I was bridesmaid) that my previously agreed holiday day had been cancelled because it was someone else's child's birthday - and they hadn't thought about taking the day off before then. Again, I became the expendable one.

Now that I am an adult and am unlikely to ever have a child, I find the attitude that I should take second place in the annual leave roster to anybody else as abhorrent as it was back then. To be perfectly honest, I am lucky that my current employer closes over christmas and new year so never have to have that argument, although if things were to change I find the attitude that childless people in general prefer to have new year off rather than christmas quite ignorant and damaging. I would be arguing my case to have christmas off to spend with family - many of whom travel long distances so we can spend one day together - just as much as any other co-worker. The mistake many make is assuming that us childless folk have no family and friends with whom we would like to spend the day - I look forward all year to spending a magical day with my nieces and nephew and catching up with extended family. A fair solution would be to ensure that everyone, regardless of circumstance gets an equal crack at the whip - so 50% workforce work christmas day 2014 and the other 50% in 2015 or similar. Still not fun for those who have to work but it is fair and equal and everyone knows where they stand in advance. It is the culture of applying for the day off and pleading that your case is better than someone else that hacks me off.

On that note, I currently have a situation where I have to arrange holidays around one other person. She has a seven year old DS, I have no children. I will quite happily work all public holidays (other than christmas, our organisation does not close and these are added to our annual leave), half term and the majority of the summer holidays BUT my husband and I are hugely involved in one major annual event which always falls in the final week of the school summer holidays - we save funds and rehearse all year to participate in this, which is our hobby as well as a holiday opportunity but this is now causing a problem with my colleague who thinks that I am limiting her holiday options by taking this time. The way I see it, she has five out of six weeks to arrange a fortnight's holiday, plus she can always take the half term and easter breaks. I have given her my word that I will never seek holidays at this time. Tbh I much prefer to take time off out of season when it is quieter and cheaper. I have even said that if there is a particular reason - a special event or holiday which coincides with my thing, we will do all we can to work around it but in general terms on an average year, there is one week which is really important to me and I really don't see why this is a problem - although I'm now bracing myself to be flamed here.

[NotNewButNameChanged]

Monica but WHY does it rile you? Why on earth shouldn't someone want to spend Christmas with their boyfriend? Unless I missed a memo, Christmas isn't JUST for people with children...

[monicalewinski]

Notnew, I'm not naive, I've been working full time for 21 years and used to work holiday periods prior to that - I have always volunteered to work certain shit shifts.

When new year and socialising was important to me, I volunteered for Xmas - when Xmas became important I volunteered for new year. I would volunteer now to work Xmas night, to ensure Xmas day off.

I do all this well in advance - I try as much as possible to not be at the mercy of rosters.

[DrHamstertoyou]

Monicalewinsky I'll work with you, sounds like we would make a happy flexible accommodating team!

[Grennie]

I don't have children. I would rather much spend Christmas with my family than New Years Eve on a piss up. For some of us, family is very important to us.

[monicalewinski]

Thank you hamster, the feeling's mutual .

Just about everyone I've ever worked with has had the same attitude - just a few selfish people who volunteer for nothing and expect the nice stuff, but generally we all try to work as a team.

[dayshiftdoris]

Summer I have also been in your situation with a colleague... Over my sons birthday and her adult son's birthday... For two years I 'moved' my very young sons celebration to accommodate her requests but in the third year I requested his birthday off as annual leave as I wanted to go away and discussed it with her first...

She went to HR... Made accusations of bullying / discrimination / fiddling my leave... HR thought she was a loon, told me not to worry but suggested that life might be easier if I just gave her what she wanted...

I did and thankfully she left before I had to do the same nonsense for 4yrs running

Some people just don't play fair...

[DrHamstertoyou]

Not a presumption the OP says she is pregnant

[monicalewinski]

Grennie, that's fine.

I have children, if I had to work Xmas I would volunteer to work Xmas night, as I want to be there Xmas morning.

If I had no children but wanted to be with extended family at family gathering I would volunteer to work on Xmas daytime.

Xmas day is 24 hours long, nobody works a 24 he shift - at most it's likely to be 13 hours.

[TantrumsAndBalloons]

This whole thing infuriates me.

This is the bloody reason why some employers are wary of employing parents with young children, and why people who do not have children get annoyed at their lives seeming to be unimportant

Honestly, you know when you go to work that you will have to cover school holidays.
You know if your organization requires staff bank holidays/Christmas/new year.

No one can possibly justify saying "well it's christmas. And I have a child
Or that they have to take half term off, despite other people wanting that week as well because i have a child

I work for one of the most family friendly companies I have ever come across. But whilst we do our best to make sure parents holiday requests are fair, it's not at the expense of everyone else.
Put your holiday form in. If no one else has booked it, that's fine. If they have, you do not get to tell them they have to cancel because it's half term.

Sorry for the little rant there. But I've just had to referee this argument with a colleague who had last week off and now wants 4 weeks in the summer and is shouting about how "it's the holidays. I have a child"

Good for you. Other people have plans as well

[monicalewinski]

Notnew, do you volunteer to work a crappy shift to ensure you can have Xmas with your boyfriend (volunteer in advance, not just playing roster roulette and hoping you slip under the Xmas day radar).

If so, then I am not riled by that - it is the whining with no prior planning or trade off that pisses me off.

[Grennie]

monicalewinsky - I wouldn't care about working other days. Like most people I have to travel to get to an extended family gathering for xmas lunch - 3.5 hours. So actually it isn't that simple. And xmas lunch is about 2 or 3pm - so daytime.

[sharonthewaspandthewineywall]

I've only worked in the nhs since having kids and have had to do my share. I really missed spending Christmas holidays with the family so found a job that has those days off so as to not end up one of those selfish tosspots who play their face about 'needing' to be off certain days because their reproductive system works.
FTR dr hamster you sound awfully like a selfish woman who I worked with. Never worked a Christmas Day for the nine years she was there, because the team were so accommodating to their colleagues and saw her need to have Christmas Day off as greater (in reality staff had no say and complained to management year on year to be told all those who didn't work Christmas Day last year kids or not would be working it this time, only to get their shifts 'swapped' at the last minute). After nine years of this crap and much anger from other team members she was rostered on for Christmas Day surprise surprise she then went off 'sick'

[ErrolTheDragonsEgg]

Summer - I can't imagine anyone flaming you for your entirely reasonable post. Frankly sounds like if you've got a fault it's that you've let your co-worker become spoilt by being too reasonable the rest of the time!

[monicalewinski]

Tantrums, it is the parents that carry on like that who ruin things for everyone (children or not).

I have always had full time childcare sorted for school holidays, at work we work round each other - I have never had an expectation that I will get school holidays off. Xmas day is my only sticking point tbh.

[KitKat1985]

MonicaLewinski - not everyone can 'move' Christmas. I like to see my Mum on Christmas day but she works in retail and therefore works Christmas eve and Boxing day, so unless we meet on Christmas day I don't get to see her. As for large family gatherings, (there were 13 at MIL and PIL last year) you cannot expect everyone to organise their lives around your shifts, and a lot of people only get the bank holidays off over Christmas, so if you are working all the bank holidays you don't get a chance to see them.

At the end of the day, it is a choice to have children, (at least for the lucky people who don't have fertility issues etc). It is also a choice to work in a profession whereby bank holiday working is expected. I accept that working bank holidays come as part of my job, but think that parents in my workplace should accept that it's part of their job too, and making the choice to have children doesn't automatically exclude them from that responsibility.

It's about mutual respect. I am entitled currently to time off work for antenatal appointments. HOWEVER, there is often only 1 qualified member of staff on a shift, (and there has to be a qualified nurse on the unit at all times) and so if I announce that I'm going to be 2 hours late in because of an appointment, then another nurse would have to be 2 hours late home waiting for me to arrive, which I think would be grossly unfair. As such I am arranging my appointments around my shifts out of respect to my colleagues. I do not see why my other colleagues should have to work extra because I am choosing to have a baby.

And to answer your question, the rota came out 5 weeks before Easter. The family gathering I was invited to 3 weeks pre-Easter, and the engagement party 2 weeks, so the rota was already set when I was invited. HOWEVER, I suspect my colleagues with children would still have been given priority even if I had off requested them off. I will merrily accept that there will always be social occasions that I will have to miss through work, what I resent is being expected to work every day of a 4-day weekend so that my parent colleagues can have the days off.

DrHamster - I'm sorry but I can't help but feel sceptical that your colleagues really don't mind you having Christmas off every year whilst they are at work. Have you ever actually asked them? Do they not have parents they would like to see? Or partners? Or grandkids?

[dayshiftdoris]

Sorry DrHamster but I just don't believe your lovely mutual agreement team exists or works...

Apart from anything else what happens when a vast majority of your work force has young children... Someone has to step up to the mark and 'child being sad' is not a good reason to not do so...

My child was sad I went to work on Christmas Day but the reality was I couldn't offer anything else on the Christmas / new year bank holiday because I have no partner... so it had to happen because I was choosing to be a midwife and working unsociable hours / days is part of the job.

And when I realised that I was going to need flexible working for a long time to come (my son has ASD) I left because expecting my colleagues to put themselves out for the CHOICES I make it selfish and unprofessional