to believe the remaining UK should not make special exceptions for Scottish economic refugees?

[longfingernails]

In the event of Scottish independence, the Scottish economy will be in the toilet. In this event, Britain should not be allowed to become a magnet for Scottish economic migrants.

I wouldn't blame Cameron if the Scots choose independence; the Tory party don't exactly have a strong foothold in those parts. However, I will certainly excoriate him if he gives an inch in any negotiations in the event of independence - especially if he allows large scale unskilled immigration from Scotland into Britain.

An independent Scotland would have almost zero negotiating power and Britain should exploit that to maximise our own advantage.

Oh good. There is hope.

I am still musing which way to vote so dont have much to add.

I was originally not bothered by the iScotland thing, as long as we could still be friends and I could come to Skye whenever I wanted to. I felt it was up to the Scottish to decide. But the currency, debt and other factors are becoming so poisonous that I am afraid it will sour our relationship, like a bad divorce . This OP was goady nonsense of course, but still.

Will you Scots posters still be our friends please?

Of course beast, we may be unskilled and stupid but we are friendly The OP needs re educated in my mind!

There are a couple of really good debates over MN, Fanjo. If you advanced search me, they'll all pop up :)

We will have to leave in a Yes vote so please be my friend too!

Thanks Santana. Yes I need to have a good read.

I wonder whether all the negative arguments made in support of staying together are actually bolstering the case for independence? It may be accurate to say there are gaping holes in the case for going it alone wrt EU membership, currency and so on - but if I was in Scotland, it would piss me right off and I'd be tempted to vote 'yes' out of sheer cussedness. Something about tone of voice.

I'm actually Finnish and my DH is English. DS (4) is the only Scot (born in Edinburgh) - so maybe he should vote (he will vote for anything for some chocolate or ice cream). As far as I'm concerned the whole of Europe should be friends (DS is genetically the European continent personified with 4 distinctly different nationalities in him, plus genes from the Middle East, etc.) :)

I am unskilled and stupid too, we will get on

I hate that line of argument edam. It's so petulant and child like, but you are definitely right that it exists.

The problem is that voting no means you don't have to deal with all this! And some of the SNP's claims are wrong (no debt, CTA and Schengen, Westminster can just ask, a currency union is good for England too) but you can't point them out without being shouted down for 'bullying' or being negative.

We are self-employed, so used to uncertainty and adapting to changing situations. Nothing new. DH is concerned for DBIL and DSIL and their children in England being left to the mercy of the Tories :D so will probably vote "no" .

I don't like the negativity either edam. I think it is the result of the Yes campaign being so incredibly aspirational that anyone responding to them and asking difficult questions such as how all this will actually be achieved and paid for is painted as being negative and a bully. The pro-Union side do seem to have ended up in the negativity corner - I have seen attempts at a more positive message but the behaviours and stances are pretty entrenched.

Weatherall that was a really awful, off putting post about Scotland. You might want to think about who that sort of propaganda (for want of a better word) will appeal to. Do you really think that the average person goes about thinking that England is a high unemployment country with no hope of home ownership and only zero hours contract working? Do you really think Scotland is nirvana? Anyone could make up a random list and say why would anyone want to live in a country with higher taxes than its neighbours, excessively high levels of public sector jobs and number of politicians, solely left wing politicians, dreadful public transport and infrastructure, poor roads and railways, drugs and health problems, and so on. Its just a list. You could say similar things about many countries, and what you claim Scotland offers doesn't even compare that well to some third world or former Eastern European states.

On your thinking, most people would simply move to another European country offering better of everything that Scotland does. Like Germany. Or Belgium. Or Luxembourg. Or The Netherlands. Or similar.

I really found your post very off-putting about Scottish independence, and I'm sitting on the fence. It was patronising. Do you really think the average person can't work out these basic things for themselves?

And I am very unusual in saying that I don't really mind where I live, as long as Dh and I have good employment, a nice house, a peaceful environment and nice scenery to go for walks in? I'm not one of those people who have to be rooted to the spot, and I find all this nationalistic, "Scotland the best branding" really off-putting and more likely to want me to live elsewhere.

It just sounds so crazy - like I imagine the former Soviet Union must have been like, with local government officials going around in vans with loudspeakers, telling everyone how productive they were and letters from government posted through your door, repeating the same.

Melonade: We don't mind either (we are already far away from family and most friends), but I love the culture here. Also prefer the climate to Northen Europe. DH would get better paid jobs in the US, but I really hate the crazy capitalism and false "I love you"s there..

I don't think voters are being 'petulant and child-like' to resent the tone of voice of the 'vote no' brigade wrt all the potential risks. It's not coming across as respecting the intelligence of the electorate and the right of self-determination. Shame, because I expect the logic is correct, but it's not coming across well.

Holland is ace, but I only speak the lingo a teeny bit. Also, it is a bit overcrowded and slowly sinking to the sea.. Every country has it's plusses and minuses. Some more, some less. Also they are, in some cases, highly subjective.

ToysRLuv that's good to hear! I don't really "get" why it has to be a decision to stay in one country or leave. To me, living in a variety of places is something positive. I can't get all that excited about being one nationality or another either. Surely people are people wherever you go.

I would say though that if Scotland had very high taxes to fund an even bigger public sector than at present (and it is already bigger than that in E&W) and to fund public positive branding, I would move somewhere that would give me, personally, a better standard of living.

I wonder whether some of the pro-nationalism supporters are in danger of marketing Scotland as a safe haven for the needy who rely on benefits and public sector jobs.

I don't think voters are being 'petulant and child-like' to resent the tone of voice of the 'vote no' brigade wrt all the potential risks. It's not coming across as respecting the intelligence of the electorate and the right of self-determination.

Mmm, I know what you mean but my own experience of the debate is that the no campaigner says, well, look, you might not be in the CTA because the CTA and Schengen are incompatible and you've have to get 28 countries to agree to you opting out of Schengen. Instead of the yes campaigner saying, yes, that's true, but we believe we will gain the opt out because of X, Y and Z, they tell the no campaigner that they don't like their tone. It seems (to me!) to be used in place of a reasoned argument.

(disclaimer: no campaigners are not always right, yes campaigners do not always throw their toys out of the pram)

Many British people can't afford just to choose a country to live in, they are stuck here.

Having the luxury of scarpering if it goes tits up is an option they just don't have.

This debate reminds me of my moods when I visit Edinburgh from London. If it's sunny I'm giddily happy - the city is just stunning. If it's a grey day I am taken over by irrational melancholy. I think it's probably the effect of the weather on the architecture/stone.

Salmond seems to have got the sunny days and Darling's got the grey days.

To me the perfect country would combine British culture (telly, music, humour, etc.) with Nordic efficiency, reliability, social systems and equality; the liberal ideas from Holland; and the climate from Southern Europe. :)

A "marvelous standard of living", Santana? Well, I'm glad for you, but what about the 20% of Scottish dc being raised in poverty? What about the elderly and less able-bodied having to choose between eating and heating, in an energy-rich country? And more of the same promised by both Labour and Tory, while they line their pockets and those of their cronies.

Scunnering.

I don't really "get" why it has to be a decision to stay in one country or leave.

Well in my own case, I have a job in a sector that would be very likely to be negatively impacted, and my husband has a public sector job (presumably safe but pays peanuts and with all the other calls on the public purse I don't see that changing). We have two children settled at school (one with additional support needs) and ageing parents. Whilst I'd be happy to live elsewhere, it would be difficult to relocate at this particular stage of our lives and it would grate to have to do so in response to the referendum. If it was necessary, we would do it, but I'd rather do it for positive reasons and not as (as the OP would frame it) and economic migrant (although I like to think a relatively skilled one).

Personally I also have the problem that whilst I've always lived in Scotland, I have lived in more than one area of Scotland. DH has always lived in the city we live in now and can't imagine living anywhere else. But if my job goes south then his can't pay to keep us here.

YY Santana, the Yes campaign are managing to avoid an awful lot of questions. Will be interesting to see how it all ends up...