To think sexism in the UK is not as bad as the UN rep says it is?

[AICM]

Yes I know you don’t have to look far to find many examples of sexism in the UK and yes the reaction of some men to this report has been awful but as I live my daily life I don’t feel as though I’m being oppressed and kept in my place by a patriarchy. I live the life I want, my OH does half (if I’m honest more than half of all domestic chores) my boss (a male) treats me with respect and my co-workers (who are nearly all male) treat me as an equal and don’t make any sexist comments.

Am I lucky or is my experience fairly common?

That said, I find a lot of British women very timid and/or lazy and unable or unwilling to do things for themselves compared to say your average Swedish or Dutch woman

What absolute stereotypical bullshit Back in the 1960s my dad offered to pay for my mum to go to night school so she could get a better job and get out of factories.
She didn't want to do it. And my mum ISNT English.

I find your post racist.

I work in a progressive part of a progressive sector but see/ experience low level sexism all the fucking time. Lots of people don't seem to notice it. Examples include things like visitors to my shared office always addressing male colleagues first, or the way that I am quizzed on my childcare arrangements/ plans when of while male colleagues whose DP is pg are merely congratulated. Women are always expected to be the flower/ card arrangers in the endless series of birthdays/ promotions/ sick leaves. My appearance and that of my female colleagues is more regularly commented on. In meetings, my female colleagues and I interrupt less frequently and are more accommodating when being interrupted. When I am introduced t another colleague, more emphasis I'd given to my character traits or personal interests whereas my male colleagues are more likely to be described in terms of their organisational achievements.

Recently, one of my male colleagues had a disastrous meltdown; another responded to this by becoming emotionally overwhelmed. If I had been in either role, I would have been labelled hysterical or at least emotional or hormonal. (I did think it hysterical, in the newer sense of that word).

I have been told I won't qualify for promotion until 2015 because of my recent mat leave.

All this stuff and more passes under the radar for most people IME. Fortunately for my colleagues, I am there to point it out

Melonade my experience is the same, the Uk is terrible for a street-based sexist culture. I was continually harassed as a 20/30 year old (not so much these days, only the odd remark) living in London and I don't have a female friend who hasn't been sexually harassed on public transport, if not worse. This is not the case in all other European countries, I was on holiday last year in a country where attractive women walked around in bikinis on the beach without twits making remarks and craning their necks to ogle them. I couldn't imagine that here.

"That is not the case in other European countries".

It was a LOT worse for me in France, Spain and Italy. Some really threatening misogynistic comments in France. It was a relief to get back to the UK in that respect, I felt liberated.

No doubt Scandinavian countries are far less sexist, but I imagine Eastern Europe paints quite a different picture. Europe can't be treated as all the same in this regard.

I've never lived in other countries but I've most definitely experienced sexism. I also do plenty for myself melonade. granted I sometimes I ask DH to do things but this is more to do with me feeling that I shouldn't have to do everything while he does fuck all rather than me being lazy. Or maybe it is me being lazy, I should do everything just to prove I can while he puts his feet up and does nothing, otherwise I'm the lazy one. Sexism at work if ever I saw it.

Here are some examples I've experienced or witnessed:

At school the careers advisor said "I don't think it's a good idea you study that because it's a science subject and you're a girl"

I've been asked in interviews about plans for children and once even asked for details of my contraception and if I'd agree to an abortion.

Senior colleague regularly ranting about how women shouldn't be employed unless they agreed to sterilisation. Men however could have as many children as they wanted.

Colleagues express horror that I work and study even though I have children. Can you imagine the same being said to a man? I can't.

When I was idiotic enough to try and report my ex for rape and more the police officer told me I was technically still married to him so it was my duty.

When said ex took me to court to try and have do taken off me my lawyer advised me to keep quiet about the rape and abuse because it would make me look bad.

When buying a car the salesman always talks to DH rather than me even though I'm the only one who can drive.

Lost count of the times I've heard "you won't understand, you're just a woman"

I've many more examples but my post was getting long. Just wanted to add that society views single mum's as scum no matter what their circumstances while the father of their child/rent doesn't face the same vitriol even if they were violently abusive. Single dad's on the other hand are automatically viewed as hero's no matter what.

I've noticed that a lot of adverts these days show the woman as the sensible one, getting things done and rolling her eyes at the man, who's portrayed as a total knob.

Yes, and feminists don't like those ads either, Neil. They fetishise the idea that women are naturally good at domestic work.

HTH.

I don't even think it was an ad for anything domestic though. I think it was for a telly or something electrical. I think the message was along the lines of it being 'so simple, even a man can use it.'

Mmm hmmm. And what do you think the basis of that "humour" was? Reversing the "so simple even a girl can do it" trope, perhaps?

Anyway, we both agree that the advert was pants and should never have been made.

YABU. Page 3 - WTAF is that all about?

Well said slug I am South African living in UK & the sexism women face here in the UK is much more evident & 'standard procedure' than in SA.

I didn't think the UK was particularly sexist until I moved to a Scandinavian country. Now when I come back to visit I'm horrified at some of the sexism that is so ingrained in way British people think it is just seen as normal.

The thing that really makes me sad is the way children are so stereotyped by clothing and toys right from birth.even on mumsnet you see this attitude this week I replied to a thread that was saying how impossible it is to use a daughter's old clothing for a son because even if you buy neutral colours the girls clothing has bows orfrilly necklines and obviously that would cause a baby boy's penis to fall off.

The other thing that shocks me is the amount of crap dads in the UK, many of my friend's dp's are just completly crap and the stories I read on mumsnet make me so glad my son won't grow up with those attitudes around him. I must say it's often sexism from both sides, mothers being reluctant to "give" the father time with the child after a separation, fathers being sent home from maternity units because the role of a father is not seen as important, crap ppaternity leave. In Sweden it's very normal for the fathers to do the school/nursery run, dads are just as likely to stay home with an ill child, most dads take at least a couple of months of paternity leave, my dp has just been at home with ds for 4 months and they are so close to each other, dp has said that the time has been really important for him to realise what it is like to be ds's main carer and also for them to bond. Fathers rarely abandon their kids here, I don't know anyone with a crap uninterested father and I think this is because of the extra time fathers have to bond with their kids.

ike, very good points. I have done a bit of work in Sweden and the differences are huge.

Also yes there are ads which are stupid and engrain sexism by suggesting men are useless around the house and with children. Those ads have been very wrong for many of us for generations - my father did the cleaning on Saturdays and did all the night bottle feeds etc etc. in the 1960s. Over 20 years ago I had an equal marriage where we did as much as each other at home and yet we still have sexist ads suggesting men don't do as much as women at home presumably because some men don't and the ads sell things. Feminists are against those kinds of ads. I also lobby for equality on divorce for men and women so both can do equal amounts of childcare, washing, cleaning and finding and arranging childcare after divorce etc.

I suspect a lot of women just do not notice the sexism about them and yet all the examples on the thread are real and most are experienced by most of us all the time. We are getting there but we have a long way to go.

That report is shocking reading.

Ikeaismylocal just said what I as a foreigner on the uk can't say without being on the receiving end of verbal abuse and calls to "go home".

The impression from the reports I saw seemed to be that we were worse than many countries. That does not seem the case, though it seems to have got worse in recent years, in part with youngsters' influence of some other cultures, especially through music.

Actually the points on women's sport are interesting. Eg. The women's cricket team isn't better than the men's. If they played the men's team they would be thrashed. Same for most (not all) sports.
How many female athletes would even make it to the Olympics/ onto a team/ qualify for tournaments if they had to compete against men?
So definitely seems sexist arrangement to have women only events.
Imagine an event for people with lower than average upper body strength or an event for people who are a bit shorter.
Might be sexism against women as they need their own events as they're not good enough to compete against men. Or might be sexism against men as women are allowed a restricted competition that men would win if allowed to take part.

the report seem to put some blame on the austerity measures.

I think the media portrayal of women is woeful in this country. I'm glad John Bercow is raising the issue of the behaviour at PMQs, it really is men behaving badly.

I remember attending a meeting in the City a couple of years ago on the Financial Crisis. 40 people in the room yet I was the only female delegate. I made sure I spoke up and didn't just smile and nod.

mariajenny sorry, I didn't notice your question to me yesterday. I wasn't ignoring, I'll answer it now!

When I left university I went to work in banking, frankly because jobs where I live are hard to come by, for family reasons I was stuck here. There are probably more women than men working in banking so I thought it looked like it had good prospects. It did...If you were a man. Male staff were openly allocated smaller workloads (apparently women should be born with the ability to type and therefore should find computer based work is quicker for them, or at least that's more or less what I was told), weren't expected to interrupt their work to the same extent to answer phone calls, weren't verbally abused on regular basis and were given permission to apply for promotion. There was a system where you had to have your manager sign your application form if you wanted to apply for promotion. If you were productive, you had less chance of getting that signature. Now, couple that with the fact that hours at your desk were seen to be an indication of your professionalism rather than actual work done, and you had a situation where carefree male staff could stay until 8pm but women with children had to leave at 5. Even when the woman got through more actual work (which could be clearly demonstrated by checking the computer records) in fewer hours, the man was seen as the one who was pulling his weight. I could go on, but you get the picture. As a result, talented women joined the organisation and stayed at the bottom whilst equally competent men soon climbed over them to the management jobs, where the whole cycle was repeated.

So, for my personal situation, the bottom line was that my husband earned much more than me. Childcare costs would come out of our joint income, but if the cost of childcare exceeds what I can earn, then the logical decision is for me to look after the children myself.

The UN rep didn't actually say that sexism was worse in the UK than anywhere else. Her report isn't a comparative report at all - she looks at areas of good practice and makes recommendations for areas of less good practice, one of which was in the media's obsessive objectification of women. The idea is to eliminate violence against women altogether, so even in countries where there is plenty of good practice, there will still be recommendations for improvement.

It seems to me that the media have got the arsehole about being criticised at all and are now using their considerable power to rubbish what is a very decent report, safe in the knowledge that no bugger will actually read it. The government aren't arguing because they don't much like the findings on austerity. Meanwhile, some excellent recommendations that would protect women and girls in the UK are going to be ignored.

I am quite shocked that she was blocked from visiting Yarls Wood centre.

My mum is Italian and the misogyny that comes from her is astounding. I grew up being exposed to it and still hear it from her now. Programmes like BGT and Take Me Out are assisted by a running commentary from her including derogatory comments about the way the female contestants look or how they have "been married before" the intimation that they have been "ruined for all other men" and I know this is what she means because she told me I was "ruined for all other men" when she found out I was in my first sexual relationship at 18.
Last week I was not surprised when I saw that Helena Frith Powell had written in Grazia about how her Italian grandfather had a mistress and it was just accepted. Then I thought about it a little more and coupled with my experiences I bet her grandmother (also Italian) wouldn't have been "allowed" to do the same. Because there seems to be a lot of hypocrisy and double standards involved.

uselessidiot I've never lived in other countries but I've most definitely experienced sexism. I also do plenty for myself melonade. granted I sometimes I ask DH to do things but this is more to do with me feeling that I shouldn't have to do everything while he does fuck all rather than me being lazy. Or maybe it is me being lazy, I should do everything just to prove I can while he puts his feet up and does nothing, otherwise I'm the lazy one. Sexism at work if ever I saw it

I agree its difficult to say anything about being a woman in the UK in comparative terms with actual examples from elsewhere without being accused of being racist. But I don't see it purely in terms of domestic sharing of tasks.

What I meant with my previous remark is that my Dutch and Swedish female friends have nearly all done things like travelling to South American countries alone for several months at a time (not on work experience or camps or organised years out), cycling across Europe on their own, etc.. I just don't know any British women who would even contemplate doing similar, or if they did, they would be a few rare ones in their forties doing it out of exasperation because no-one will join them. Here, if you do anything on your own, you are met with pitying remarks about you being alone, even from other women!

I agree with ikea that Britain seems to have a lot of "dead beat dads", in fact I find the behaviour of a lot of British men really quite appalling. Not even the outwardly abusive ones but the ones who are too forward and try to engage you in conversation as if they know you, without waiting for a proper introduction, and then get arsy when you don't reciprocate. So on that basis obladee I know what you are talking about (admittedly I've only spent 3 weeks in South Africa, on my own but I met a lot of people there).

These men are someone's sons and brothers and nephews, etc. and someone is not bringing them up properly.

Theres also a real UK culture of treating women as if they are invisible or past it beyond 40 or so - see what happens to BBC female presenters after then. I was so pleasantly surprised when I watched US tv with the high number of absolutely brilliant older female tv presenters.

My mum travels on her own. I don't travel simply because I can't afford to and I've responsibilities here.